Fecal microbiota transplant shows promise for hepatic encephalopathy

[MonkeyMan]

ME/CFS may be a cousin to hepatic encephalopathy ("HE"), which causes forgetfulness and confusion in people with chronic liver disease. In my case as an ME/CFS patient, every time I eat a meal, I become brain-fogged shortly thereafter -- precisely during the time I am digesting the food. I am convinced that this brain fog is caused by toxins produced by bad bacteria and yeasts in my gut that are feeding on the food. Because such a massive amount of toxins are produced with every meal I eat, my liver is unable to filter out all the toxins, which leads to the brain fog (or what Jarred Younger would term brain inflammation).

The good news is that oral fecal transplants appear to help reduce symptoms in HE patients, and thus may help ME/CFS patients whose problems stem from the gut.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/meetingcoverage/easl/79186
https://www.mdedge.com/internalmedicine/article/199898/

 

[ljimbo423]

In my case as an ME/CFS patient, every time I eat a meal, I become brain-fogged shortly thereafter -- precisely during the time I am digesting the food.

I am convinced that this brain fog is caused by toxins produced by bad bacteria and yeasts in my gut that are feeding on the food. Because such a massive amount of toxins are produced with every meal I eat, my liver is unable to filter out all the toxins, which leads to the brain fog (or what Jarred Younger would term brain inflammation).

Nice find! I have the same issue with food, specifically carbs. I was on a low carb diet for a while then decided it wasn't helping my gut. So I went back up to about 200 gms of carbs a day.

I don't feel worse rate after eating but within a week of increasing my carb intake, I was mostly bedridden again. I hadn't been mostly bedridden or even taking regular naps for years! I went back on the low carb diet and the profound fatigue an exhaustion were gone again within a few days.

So my hunch is pretty much the same as yours. The higher intake of carbs fed the dysbiosis in my gut and the toxins from the overgrowth made me profoundly sicker.

This is from one of the links you posted-

In addition to a significant reduction in hospitalizations, he said that treatment with the fecal microbial transplant capsules was associated with favorable changes in mucosal and stool microbial composition and enhancement of the small intestinal barrier.

"In short," he said, "the way to the brain is through the gut."

I think research is just scratching the surface of how much of an impact dysbiosis and leaky gut have on the quality of people's lives and the HUGE role it plays in many diseases.

Even "healthy" people often have dysbiosis which I think often causes them increased anxiety, fatigue and brain fog. I also think dysbiosis and leaky gut often causes many symptoms in the brain, as the article says.

 

[MonkeyMan]

Thanks Jim. You and I are definitely on the same page.

FMT can also make a big difference to autism.
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-04/asu-asr040819.php

If FMT capsules can help us, then next year should be a good year -- I think at least one of these FMT products is expected to hit the market in 2020.

 

[Hip]

In my case as an ME/CFS patient, every time I eat a meal, I become brain-fogged shortly thereafter -- precisely during the time I am digesting the food. I am convinced that this brain fog is caused by toxins produced by bad bacteria and yeasts in my gut that are feeding on the food.

You might like to consider the possibility of D-lactic acidosis, where certain bacteria in the gut make D-lactic acid, which can cause brain fog. @Avenger has this, see his thread here.

 

[MonkeyMan]

You might like to consider the possibility of D-lactic acidosis, where certain bacteria in the gut make D-lactic acid, which can cause brain fog. @Avenger has this, see his thread here.

Thanks Hip but my symptoms are triggered by any and all foods, even just protein ... and the more difficult-to-digest foods in particular. I've tried everything under the sun, including all kinds of probiotics, digestive enzymes, HCl, and after nearly 35 years of battling this I'm certain it is the overgrowth of bad bacteria, caused by years of antibiotic usage, that are at the root of my ME/CFS.

 

[ljimbo423]

my symptoms are triggered by any and all foods, even just protein ...

I was shocked to find out protein was being fermented in my small intestine, just like carbs do. The way I found out was by just eating protein and fat for breakfast and shortly after I ate I would get symptoms of fermentation. The rumbling, gurgling, gas, etc.

I think I did some research on it that confirmed protein could be fermented. I've been at this for 30 years myself.

 

[Hopeful1976]

Thanks Jim. You and I are definitely on the same page.

FMT can also make a big difference to autism.
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-04/asu-asr040819.php

If FMT capsules can help us, then next year should be a good year -- I think at least one of these FMT products is expected to hit the market in 2020.

Will this be in the UK also? My gut is a huge symptom and I'm desperate to improve it.

 

[Hopeful1976]

Nice find! I have the same issue with food, specifically carbs. I was on a low carb diet for a while then decided it wasn't helping my gut. So I went back up to about 200 gms of carbs a day.

I don't feel worse rate after eating but within a week of increasing my carb intake, I was mostly bedridden again. I hadn't been mostly bedridden or even taking regular naps for years! I went back on the low carb diet and the profound fatigue an exhaustion were gone again within a few days.

So my hunch is pretty much the same as yours. The higher intake of carbs fed the dysbiosis in my gut and the toxins from the overgrowth made me profoundly sicker.

This is from one of the links you posted-



I think research is just scratching the surface of how much of an impact dysbiosis and leaky gut have on the quality of people's lives (even "healthy" people often have dysbiosis) and the HUGE role it plays in many disease. I also think dysbiosis and leaky gut often cause symptoms in the brain, as the article says.

Hi @ljimbo423. What would a low carb diet look like? I'm desperate now to try anything to help.

 

[Avenger]

Thanks Hip but my symptoms are triggered by any and all foods, even just protein ... and the more difficult-to-digest foods in particular. I've tried everything under the sun, including all kinds of probiotics, digestive enzymes, HCl, and after nearly 35 years of battling this I'm certain it is the overgrowth of bad bacteria, caused by years of antibiotic usage, that are at the root of my ME/CFS.

Hi, it can take 36 plus hours to clear the effects of Carbohydrates and Simple Sugars. It is very difficult to get Carbohydrates and Sugars to 0%. The diet is difficult to say the least and you may be confusing protein intake because it is so difficult to maintain and the time it takes to clear the symptoms caused by Carbohydrates. A FODMAP diet may be even more helpful.

Sheedy et al. Found that other metabolites are also produced as well as D-Lactic acid. I believe that the diet is the best way to stop or reduce the symptoms of Bacterial Overgrowth.

I also had to use a lot of antibiotics. Did your symptoms stop after using Metronidazole?


Paul.

 

[MonkeyMan]

I was shocked to find out protein was being fermented in my small intestine, just like carbs do. The way I found out was by just eating protein and fat for breakfast and shortly after I ate I would get symptoms of fermentation. The rumbling, gurgling, gas, etc.

I think I did some research on it that confirmed protein could be fermented. I've been at this for 30 years myself.

Interesting! In theory, should FMT reduce this fermentation? I know the small intestine is supposedly "sterile".

 

[MonkeyMan]

Hi, it can take 36 plus hours to clear the effects of Carbohydrates and Simple Sugars. It is very difficult to get Carbohydrates and Sugars to 0%. The diet is difficult to say the least and you may be confusing protein intake because it is so difficult to maintain and the time it takes to clear the symptoms caused by Carbohydrates. A FODMAP diet may be even more helpful.

Sheedy et al. Found that other metabolites are also produced as well as D-Lactic acid. I believe that the diet is the best way to stop or reduce the symptoms of Bacterial Overgrowth.

I also had to use a lot of antibiotics. Did your symptoms stop after using Metronidazole?


Paul.

Hi Paul, I was carb-free for over 3 days. It didn't help, but I'm glad it's working for you!

How far recovered are you? (80%? 90%? 100%?)

I never took metronidazole. But tetracycline over-use is what caused my ME/CFS in the first place.

 

[ljimbo423]

Interesting! In theory, should FMT reduce this fermentation? I know the small intestine is supposedly "sterile".

I use to think the small intestine was sterile but it's not-

The gut includes very different anatomical segments, and germ-free models suggest that the gut microbiota shapes both the gut mucosal immune system and the systemic immune system.

However, we have focused this review on the recent findings on the gut microbiota and mucosal immunity in the small intestine, because this organ is particularly relevant for health and disease [12] and for microbiota-immunity interactions.

Indeed, Peyer’s patches (PPs), the main gut mucosal immune system inductor sites, are specifically found in the small intestine, and immunoglobulin A (IgA), the main gut mucosal immune effector, predominantly targets commensal bacteria that reside in the small intestine [13].

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2452231717300192

I think a FMT would reduce the level of bad bacteria in the small intestine and raise the level of good bacteria. Therefore reducing or eliminating fermentation.

 

[ljimbo423]

But tetracycline over-use is what caused my ME/CFS in the first place.

I'm convinced it was primarily dozens of courses of antibiotics I took over many years that caused my CFS. They destroyed my gut microbiome, caused a leaky gut and my CFS.

 

[ljimbo423]

Hi @ljimbo423. What would a low carb diet look like? I'm desperate now to try anything to help.

My understanding is that starchy carbs are the worst for rebalancing gut dysbiosis. So my focus in mainly on these. Potatoes, rice, pasta, bread, most beans etc. I think a good place to start would be to slowly reduce the amounts of these types of foods until you find a level of low carb eating that's right for your body.

I need to eat a small potato and a serving of rice every day to get the carbs I need to maintain my weight and feel my best. I also eat ripe bananas and oranges fairly regularly with A LOT of protein and healthy fats, like olive oil and almond butter and a lot of vegetables, salads, etc.

The "specific carbohydrate diet" (SCD) is what I use as a basic guideline but only as a guide, because they recommend no starches and grains at all and my feeling is that's way too strict for many of us with CFS. This is a link to the SCD-

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/legal/listing/

 

[bertiedog]

So my hunch is pretty much the same as yours. The higher intake of carbs fed the dysbiosis in my gut and the toxins from the overgrowth made me profoundly sick

I am similar to this too but do ok on around 55 g net carbs daily. I have recently started making very low sugar flapjacks using a mashed banana for sweetness and binding and only have a tiny piece when out walking my beagle. This doesn't have any ill effects I guess because I am burning off the carb through the gentle walk.

If I was to eat it and sit around then I think it would be different. Have to say I really enjoy this very small piece of extra carbs and just hope the oats might help might microbiome a bit. I will do another Ubiome test maybe in a month to see if there is an improvement in the beneficial bacteria. Usually it comes out really low.

Pam

 

[bertiedog]

I'm convinced it was primarily dozens of courses of antibiotics I took over many years that caused my CFS. They destroyed my gut microbiome, caused a leaky gut and my CFS.

Me too.

Pam

 

[ljimbo423]

I am similar to this too but do ok on around 55 g net carbs daily.

That's almost exactly what I have in carb intake from starchy carbs alone. I need more carbs though because I go into ketosis at 55 grams a day and I feel sick in ketosis.

Ideally I would love to do ketosis consistently for lowering bacterial overgrowth but my body has other ideas!

Have to say I really enjoy this very small piece of extra carbs and just hope the oats might help might microbiome a bit.

I just recently started to eat 1 tablespoon of oats soaked in a splash of milk with a couple of tablespoons of vanilla flavored almond butter mixed with a little honey. WOW-it's like food heaven! What a great treat!

I too am hoping the oats are doing something good for my gut. They do have Beta glucan in them, which is a prebiotic, so they can't be all bad.

 

[MonkeyMan]

I'm convinced it was primarily dozens of courses of antibiotics I took over many years that caused my CFS. They destroyed my gut microbiome, caused a leaky gut and my CFS.

Same here! But the leaky gut test I had was "normal". Did you get tested?

 

[ljimbo423]

Same here! But the leaky gut test I had was "normal". Did you get tested?

I haven't had a leaky gut test. I was tested for dysbiosis and it came back as an 18 out 20. 0 being a perfect microbiome and a 20 being the worst dysbiosis the test could measure. Mine was an 18 out 20!!

I'm really surprised that your leaky gut test came back normal! What do you make of that?

 

[MonkeyMan]

I haven't had a leaky gut test. I was tested for dysbiosis and it came back as an 18 out 20. 0 being a perfect microbiome and a 20 being the worst dysbiosis the test could measure. Mine was an 18 out 20!!

I'm really surprised that your leaky gut test came back normal! What do you make of that?

Interesting! What was the dysbiosis test that you had? I had two different tests (the Genova Diagnostics GI Effects Comprehensive Stool Profile, and the Great Plains Organic Acids test) that both found significant imbalances in my gut bacteria.

I too was surprised about the normal leaky gut results, but I would think that the bacterial imbalance has a major negative effect even when the gut wall itself is not compromised.