Faith Healing Discussion

[Wayne]

Brenda - Thanks

I will start off by apologising for my over-reaction previously.

But I wonder if we all deep down want this to be true - that there is a God and that He can heal instantly but do not want to have hope raised in case it is false and looking at the world, the evidence seems to point to there not being a God or at least a God who cares.
B

Hi Brenda, Hi All,

Brenda, I want to thank you for your post. I found it to be quite interesting and pleasant to read. I also appreciated your apology and fresh new tone. And BTW, I did not get the impression your comments about the RCC were meant to denigrate. Just thought you were making a point (without malice).

Regarding healing: I probably have a little different take on healing than most, and might just share a couple thoughts here. First, I don't believe God (or Spirit or the Universe, etc.) would heal anybody unless it was in their highest spiritual interests to do so.

For example, what if a person flaunted many principles of diet and nutrition for a long period of time, and this eventually lead to some serious health problems? If God were to step in and heal this person, could it perhaps deprive this person of the realization that he/she needed to improve their diet in order to improve their health situation? And could a healing perhaps set them back spiritually?

Healing is such a complex subject, but to give just another example. What if a person was going through life with a little too much arrogance and not enough humility. (I can think of a few doctors that might fit this bill LOL). Since faltering health can sometimes be a catalyst for humility, might there not be a place in the "grand scheme of things" to having such a person deal with some health challenges?

I've noticed that a lot of people think that prayer directed toward healing health conditions is always in the best interests of that person. Or perhaps praying that a person live and not die, is always in accordance with the Divine plan. It always puzzles me that people can feel so confident about these types of things. Shouldn't we leave this to God who always knows what's in somebody's best spiritual interests?

Just to mention, some of my thoughts above are not in any manner meant to address any previous comments you or anybody else has made. (I don't remember what has all been said here :Retro smile. Just thought I'd comment on some of the reservations I have about prayer and how I feel it is sometimes misused.

Thanks again for your post. Hope you're doing well today.

Regards, Wayne

ETA I do believe that prayer vigils or prayer groups can affect a person, and perhaps heal them. But I feel there are many different levels of healing, and unless one gets a deep spiritual healing (which I doubt can be facilitated by a prayer group), I would think that it may not necessarily be permanent.

 

[Martlet]

Wayne

I think you made some excellent points, especially when you said "But I feel there are many different levels of healing, and unless one gets a deep spiritual healing (which I doubt can be facilitated by a prayer group), I would think that it may not necessarily be permanent."

One of the most important aspects, when I was healed in 1996 was not the physical healing. That part was very visible... mind-blowingly so to those who knew me... but in addition to that, there was that deep spiritual healing. I was, for the first time in my life, able to forgive someone who had hurt not only me, but many people whom I loved.

You also wisely said "Shouldn't we leave this to God who always knows what's in somebody's best spiritual interests?" to which I can only answer that every healing is a sovereign act of God, but Jesus tells us that we are allowed to ask - and to ask repeatedly. In the end though, God will do as He wants. An elderly and highly-respected nun once reminded me that no matter how it might feel at the time, God will always do the most loving thing for our long-term benefit.

Kurt

I really appreciate you stepping in to remind us of the respect we pay to people of different faith denominations. As a Catholic, I would gladly discuss the real teachings of the Catholic Church (people are often unaware - even some Catholics!) but not in this thread and not for it to turn into a Catholic-bashing discussion.

 

[brenda]

Wayne

Thanks for your kind words. I was merely pointing out that I have found that some of the teachings of the CC put people off who are seeking God and also these same teachings are the ones which give many atheists their anger towards the church in general. The rulings on contraception is one in particular. There is also the issue of the way that children were harshly treated by nuns in Catholic schools in the past which has damaged many who want nothing to do with religion because of it.

At the same time I am not saying that the rest of the church is without fault - I am not Protesting! I believe that the whole of the organised church is nothing like the Christianity we see in the NT and what Jesus taught. I was only focusing on the CC because of what has been discussed.

I find plenty of fault with the Protestant church too and am not a Protestant myself.

I was not implying anything by saying I know Catholics who are good Christians as opposed to people who just go to church out of habit or tradition and do not practise what they are supposed to believe, and these people are in every denomination. What I was pointing out is that many in the CC do not agree with their churches teachings on various issues and especially contraception.

I often find that the only way to reach out to others who have rejected Christ is to denounce what goes by in the name of Christianity and obviously is not. I am not out to demonise any sector in particular.

I agree with you entirely about healing Wayne especially on the importance opf spiritual healing. A lot of healings asked for are about laziness and lack of discipline. We think we can do what we want with our bodies but they have been designed to obey natural laws.

The thing that I had issue with is the denial that anyone who has had instant healing was ever truly sick but then man's mind will always deny what he cannot understand. For myself, emotional and spiritual healing have been the most important things for me. To learn to forgive and to be forgiven by our law giver are the most important aspects by far. We can be perfectly at peace inside and live every moment in joy no matter what physical symptoms we have. If we really get there instead of a sort of denial state that looks happy on the surface but is not really when push comes to shove then we have found the answer. I always remember a spiritual woman I knew who had cancer and she told me that on the chemo ward, the patients were jolly at visitor time and their relatives and friends were amazed at them and praised them to everyone, but my friend told me that they all cried desperately at night on their own.

What they presented through the day to the world was a false face of bravery because that was all they had left to achieve. She was different though because she had the peace of God which is above understanding and there fore in my mind she had the truth..

 

[Jody]

Brenda,

I have been on all sides of that acceptance / denial thing.

I think I was afraid that if I was honest with myself about how sick I was, and how bad it felt, and how very much it was affecting how I thought and felt, that I would somehow shortcircuit my chances of being healed.

At some point I was so sick it could no longer be averted because everything in my life had come to a halt. After I recovered enough to be able to think at all, I was still too sick to be able to do anything, even read or watch TV. Alot of time was spent looking at my new situation as a captive to illness.

I was very angry for a long time. Very angry with God for a long time. Years. I spent 2 years where I'd go into my bedroom after dinner and spend the whole evening berating God for not being there. (Paradoxical, I know. Knew it at the time.:Retro tongue: But couldn't help myself.) I was angry that He was not real, was NOT there for me. Was NOT healing me or helping me in any of the ways I thought he should. But just because he wasn't real, ... that didn't stop me from making him listen to me.

Every evening for hours for two years.

So, I was being honest with myself, finally, about how things were for me and how I felt.

Very unpleasant time but for me I think it was a necessary process.

 

[Esther12]

Was just watching this, and thought I'd post it: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/4778729

A discussion between Philip Clayton (religious) & Daniel Dennett (atheist). They seemed to end up with pretty much the same positions on everything, but Clayton liked using slightly more magical language when talking about things.

I'm a bit of a Dennett fan, and his ideas about the way our minds operate chimes very closely with my own, and probably affects the way I view CFS too.

 

[Martlet]

I was very angry for a long time. Very angry with God for a long time. Years.

Five years ago, there was a BBC programme about five men who spent 40 days and nights with the Benedictine monks at Worth Abbey, in the UK. The series, called The Monastery, followed these five through their trials and tribulations, and there was one particular man who stood out for me. His life had been pretty hellish after he had been made redundant. He became an alcoholic and finally was working in the porn industry when he participated in the series. He was the tough nut, a bit of a lad, no beliefs whatever. It wasn't until towards the end of the experiment that he had what he described as a "profound and scary" spiritual experience and that night, when making his daily video diary, he got furious, cussing at God, more or less telling him that if He was there, He needed to do something. When I heard that angry prayer come from his lips, I turned to my husband and said, "That's the best prayer I've ever heard," because it came right from the heart. No standing on ceremony. No false piety. Just a man in a desert calling out to see if anyone would answer. Of the five men, only two were changed long-term by their experience. This man was one of them.

If anyone is interested in the series, it is on youtube:

http://www.worthabbey.net/bbc/links-youtube.htm

 

[Navid]

martlet:

thanks for sharing link to that doc. it was very interesting, i enjoyed it.

regards, lisa

 

[Martlet]

Lisa

The BBC is making another series called The Silence. Three women and two men will attempt monastic silence. It is coming up sometime this Spring. You might enjoy that too. I know I am looking forward to it. Silence is not my strong point :-( so I am hoping to learn something from it.

 

[Navid]

martlet

Lisa

The BBC is making another series called The Silence. Three women and two men will attempt monastic silence. It is coming up sometime this Spring. You might enjoy that too. I know I am looking forward to it. Silence is not my strong point :-( so I am hoping to learn something from it.

oh, would love to see that too. let me know when you see broadcast, please:Retro smile:....i think i have the bbc on cable or else can watch online somewhere i'm sure.

wonder if the man from the last doc who was so intrigued by the monastic silence will participate.

take care, lisa

 

[nanciswell]

Not sure if this is the proper place to post this..

An interesting link to Michael Flatley's healing from an undiagnosable fatigue/viral infection..
http://www.independent.ie/health/al...mystery-illness--claims--flatley-1588540.html

..As I feel it is important to honour both.. I plan to continue to pursue taking responsibility for both my physical and spiritual health ..

nanci

 

[AFCFS]

For me, Faith is ineffable. It must transcend words or it will be caught and bound in a context that ultimately shows their futility. At best, words can point to Faith, but never capture it in essence or form.

When I think of the wordiness that has attempted to consume or expound Faith, I also think of the wars that have been fought to challenge or defend it, and am then often reminded of Mark Twain's "The War-Prayer," A Pen Warmed up in Hell:

“Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth into battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended in the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames in summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it — ​

​

For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimmage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! ​

​

We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen. ​

- There is no healing there. And now, as there is a "Separation of Church and State," I find that it is also the case that there be a "Separation of Church and Faith," less I be entwined in the folly of man that attempts to capture God in a word.

 

[Wifi123]

The Bible says that the Prayer of Faith, anointing of oil, and the confession of sins they shall be healed (James 5:13-16).

 

[Gloria H]

I'm coming in here way after all the uproar and glad I missed out on all the strife. I'm glad the thread survived & peace was restored. It has been amazing & saddening to see people around me make up & define their own god and then get angry with that god when it "doesn't perform like they wanted it to". I'm still counting on the God revealed in the Bible. When things don't go as expected from what I learn there, it's useless for me to get mad at God. I've decided it's better for me to say with Job "I'm convinced: You [God] can do anything and everything. .... You asked, ‘Who is this muddying the water, ignorantly confusing the issue, second-guessing my purposes?’ I admit it. I was the one. I babbled on about things far beyond me, made small talk about wonders way over my head. ..... I admit I once lived by rumors of You; now I have it all firsthand—from my own eyes and ears! I’m sorry—forgive me. I’ll never again live on crusts of hearsay, crumbs of rumor.” .................... After Job had interceded for his friends, God restored his fortune—and then doubled it!
Blessings to you

 

[rosie26]

I haven't come across this thread before, thanks Gloria for resurrecting it, I will read through this weekend. x

 

[brenda]

Interesting to read this thread again. Hi Gloria

Things are different on this forum nowadays and one can talk about ones beliefs, but at one time, and not just on this thread, it was not like this.

It was interesting for me to read again about that incident at a healing ministry where a chest infection of mine was healed. I am afraid I was a little too optimistic about further healing however. I did have some positive emotional after effects from the ministry but it was a huge mistake for me to listen to the team regarding my diet which had already done an amazing amount of healing in me, enough in fact for me to be able to travel 4 hours to the ministry venue.

They said that one should not have to live with dietary restrictions and to denounce them as a lie from the enemy. I was eating macrobiotically which gave them even more concern so I quit it and tried their way. Unfortunately my healing stalled and stuck for a number of years and in the meantime I found out I had had Lyme Disease since just before that ministry.

It has been only since getting back on the macro diet that my health has finally really begun to pick up with improvement in lab results. If I had stuck to it and not listened to the healing team I may have had a full recovery I just don't know. The positive thinking influence in Name it and Claim it brigade has a lot to answer for.

I still believe that God does heal today but not that often and not so much for chronic diseases like ours.