Hip
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I updated my above post, and added the entire list of drugs and supplements I compiled that protect against quinolinic acid-induced neurotoxicity.
Extremely upsetting SPECT scan results: brain lesions! What now??
- Thread starter Antares in NYC
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I updated my above post, and added the entire list of drugs and supplements I compiled that protect against quinolinic acid-induced neurotoxicity.
@Hip
Do you have citations for these studies?
@Antares in NYC
You probably know this but it can't be said often enough. I would run any supplements by your doctor before starting them.
How are you doing?
Are there medications for shrinking lesions? If so is anyone here on them?
Do you have citations for these studies?
@Antares in NYC
You probably know this but it can't be said often enough. I would run any supplements by your doctor before starting them.
How are you doing?
Are there medications for shrinking lesions? If so is anyone here on them?
Hip
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Wayne
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Hi @Hip
I noticed you didn't have niacin on your list. Dannybex just posted today on niacin and quinolinic acid. He attatched a screen cap at THIS LINK.
Hip
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Yes, I did see that link, thanks @Wayne (in fact it was @dannybex's post about quinolinic acid that promoted me think of this thread and brain lesions, as quinolinic acid can cause such lesions).
But I could not find any references about niacin reducing quinolinic acid neurotoxicity, and I can't see from the reference cited how niacin can inhibit quinolinic acid neurotoxicity, unless I am missing an important point.
Although interestingly, picolinic acid has been found to block the neurotoxic (but not the neuroexcitant) effects of quinolinic acid. 1 Picolinic acid is an isomer of nicotinic acid (niacin).
I think picolinic acid can be found in supplements such as zinc picolinate.
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Regular MRI.
That's correct that niacin may not directly reduce QA neurotoxicity, but it's my understanding that if one gets sufficient amounts of niacin, then tryptophan won't be broken down, resulting in lower levels of quinolinic acid.
So wouldn't there be less neurotoxicity if there was less QA?
Interesting about the picolinic.
Hip
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I think you are alluding to the following statement from the study:
However, I am not entirely sure (because I really don't know much about it), but I don't think NAD+ synthesis is the same pathway as the pathway in microglia which during inflammation creates quinolinic acid from tryptophan via the action of the enzyme IDO (indoleamine-2-3-dioxygenase).
No I was referring these parts:
"Quiniolinate, or quinolinic acid, is an endogenous neurotoxin produced as the last substrate in the second segment of the kynurenine metabolic pathway...
...In healthy populations with sufficient niacin content in the diet, little quinolinate production is required in the liver, and the concentration of quinolinate and other kynurenine pathway metabolites in tissues and blood is low."
I don't really know either, but my mushy-brained interpretation is that if one gets enough niacin, then there's no need to break down tryptophan to make niacin -- and it's during that process that quinolinic is formed, inflammation or no inflammation.
I think...
Hip
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@dannybex
I am not familiar with that tryptophan breakdown pathway, which seems to occur in the liver via the enzyme tryptophan 2,3-dioxygenase (and I am also too mushy brained myself at the moment to investigate). But I do know a little bit about how tryptophan is broken down into quinolinic acid in activated microglia in the brain:
It starts with interferon-gamma, which increases level of the enzyme IDO (indoleamine-2-3-dioxygenase) in the brain.
IDO then breaks down tryptophan into kynurenine, and kynurenine is further metabolized into the three components:
kynurenic acid — provides neuroprotection
3-hydroxykynurenine — which is neurotoxic
quinolinic acid — which is neurotoxic
Ref: Role of tryptophan-kynurenine pathway in depression
I am not familiar with that tryptophan breakdown pathway, which seems to occur in the liver via the enzyme tryptophan 2,3-dioxygenase (and I am also too mushy brained myself at the moment to investigate). But I do know a little bit about how tryptophan is broken down into quinolinic acid in activated microglia in the brain:
It starts with interferon-gamma, which increases level of the enzyme IDO (indoleamine-2-3-dioxygenase) in the brain.
IDO then breaks down tryptophan into kynurenine, and kynurenine is further metabolized into the three components:
kynurenic acid — provides neuroprotection
3-hydroxykynurenine — which is neurotoxic
quinolinic acid — which is neurotoxic
Ref: Role of tryptophan-kynurenine pathway in depression
@Antares in NYC
Within the first yr or so of getting sick, I had an MRI that showed unidentified bright objects / areas of white matter hyperintensity. My specialist at the time (infectious disease) didn't know what it meant but was not very concerned.
Follow up MRI's 5 and 10 yrs latter both did not show these - so they somehow "resolved."
To date, the only cognitive problems shown on neurpsych evals are poor working memory and poor fine motor coordination on my left side (tremor). I still got the top grade in every university grad or undergrad class I took since college - so I can't be that dain bramaged. =P
Within the first yr or so of getting sick, I had an MRI that showed unidentified bright objects / areas of white matter hyperintensity. My specialist at the time (infectious disease) didn't know what it meant but was not very concerned.
Follow up MRI's 5 and 10 yrs latter both did not show these - so they somehow "resolved."
To date, the only cognitive problems shown on neurpsych evals are poor working memory and poor fine motor coordination on my left side (tremor). I still got the top grade in every university grad or undergrad class I took since college - so I can't be that dain bramaged. =P
Still trying to figure this out myself. Did you see this study @Hip? It seems like no matter where QA ends up and what it affects, it comes back to tryptophan being broken down to get enough NAD.
So I'm hoping that helps back up what I posted earlier, that if one is getting enough niacin, then tryptophan doesn't need to be broken down to make NAD, creating quinolinic in the process.
And thus, that sufficient niacin should result (eventually) in lower levels of quinolinic as mentioned in the earlier study.
Tagging @Sidereal, @Kathevans, @Eeyore for their input as well.
???
Hip
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@Hip
I appreciate your reply.
This is what so frustrating about this whole situation. Dr. Marrs says B6 prevents it, while Yasko and others say the exact opposite. And since I've been unable to tolerate B6 (I used to get 'stocking-glove' neuropathy, but in the last 8-9 months, stronger myoclonic-like jerks in my feet in bed -- QA's been shown to induce convulsions) it makes me wonder if that's due to B6 causing increased levels of QA.
It's even more frustrating because it seems like 99% of studies done (especially on humans) from any nutritional perspective are typically pre-1975 and thus the full papers are extremely difficult to pull up. But I've seen a case study with 2 siblings where QA excretion decreased when they were given B6, and then the opposite in an older study.
Of course I can't find Yasko's paper when I need it, but here's @aquariusgirl 's post which quotes it:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nsomnia-side-effects.41966/page-2#post-689258
"I’ve noted that in certain instances, the use of high dose B6 or P5P is not always helpful, and may cause overstimulatory or OCD type behaviors. While kynurenic acid is a calming neurotransmitter, it’s converted by B6 or P5P into quinolinic acid, which is an excitotoxin that can aggravate the nervous system."
But then again, if niacin lowers quinolinate levels, then why don't I just take it and shut the ____ up? Well, I've tried it off and on for a couple months, but it seems to increase histamine levels, and so I end up w/watery eyes, strained eyesight, and (sorry) more frustration.
Would be really interested to hear from others with elevated quinolinic on their OAT.
Did niacin help? Did B6? Or did B6 make things worse?
Do you suffer from b6/p5p intolerance symptoms and have high quinolinic?
Anyway, thanks @Hip. I've tried cucurmin but it's really constipating for me. Maybe could try a tiny dose.
I appreciate your reply.
This is what so frustrating about this whole situation. Dr. Marrs says B6 prevents it, while Yasko and others say the exact opposite. And since I've been unable to tolerate B6 (I used to get 'stocking-glove' neuropathy, but in the last 8-9 months, stronger myoclonic-like jerks in my feet in bed -- QA's been shown to induce convulsions) it makes me wonder if that's due to B6 causing increased levels of QA.
It's even more frustrating because it seems like 99% of studies done (especially on humans) from any nutritional perspective are typically pre-1975 and thus the full papers are extremely difficult to pull up. But I've seen a case study with 2 siblings where QA excretion decreased when they were given B6, and then the opposite in an older study.
Of course I can't find Yasko's paper when I need it, but here's @aquariusgirl 's post which quotes it:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nsomnia-side-effects.41966/page-2#post-689258
"I’ve noted that in certain instances, the use of high dose B6 or P5P is not always helpful, and may cause overstimulatory or OCD type behaviors. While kynurenic acid is a calming neurotransmitter, it’s converted by B6 or P5P into quinolinic acid, which is an excitotoxin that can aggravate the nervous system."
But then again, if niacin lowers quinolinate levels, then why don't I just take it and shut the ____ up? Well, I've tried it off and on for a couple months, but it seems to increase histamine levels, and so I end up w/watery eyes, strained eyesight, and (sorry) more frustration.
Would be really interested to hear from others with elevated quinolinic on their OAT.
Did niacin help? Did B6? Or did B6 make things worse?
Do you suffer from b6/p5p intolerance symptoms and have high quinolinic?
Anyway, thanks @Hip. I've tried cucurmin but it's really constipating for me. Maybe could try a tiny dose.
This paper found that "Serum quinolinic acid was increased only in the cobalamin-deficient rats."
http://www.jnutbio.com/article/S0955-2863(97)89666-0/abstract
Many of us have high B12 levels, but perhaps there's a functional deficiency?
Also, this study found 'folic acid' protected 'susceptible retinal neurons from the neurotoxic effects' of quinolinic acid in chick retinas.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3297751
http://www.jnutbio.com/article/S0955-2863(97)89666-0/abstract
Many of us have high B12 levels, but perhaps there's a functional deficiency?
Also, this study found 'folic acid' protected 'susceptible retinal neurons from the neurotoxic effects' of quinolinic acid in chick retinas.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3297751
Funcional Deficiency is what I was told.
Read Naviaux Cell Danger Response Theory.
Seems to tie a lot together especially the Nutrient aspects as well as the microbiome so maybe with Lipkin, KDM and Naviaux are all on the right track. Makes a ton of sense for a subset.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567724913002390
They really just need to start the Funding to so people get some help....
My biggest problem at this point is that we kind of have an idea of what may and may not work in some but it is such a guess.....
That guess by dropping some medication in your body without sound evidence could permanently screw you up...thats what scares me....but then again do nothing and gamble and you may or may not get better.
Seems to tie a lot together especially the Nutrient aspects as well as the microbiome so maybe with Lipkin, KDM and Naviaux are all on the right track. Makes a ton of sense for a subset.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567724913002390
They really just need to start the Funding to so people get some help....
My biggest problem at this point is that we kind of have an idea of what may and may not work in some but it is such a guess.....
That guess by dropping some medication in your body without sound evidence could permanently screw you up...thats what scares me....but then again do nothing and gamble and you may or may not get better.
why do you think there are not as many studies on nutrition since 1975? just curious.....have noticed a lot of useful research decreased over the years. wondered if some of the politics discussed in that lymes film under our skin alludes to some of reasons.