During PEM, my visual perception of the world seems slightly darker....anyone else?

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crussher

Messages
89
A bit of an odd one maybe but….



When I’m in PEM, the world seems ever so slightly darker. I came across one interview of an ME patient in Dan Neuffer’s ANS Rewire program who said that he experienced the same thing and I also - in researching for my book about psychogenic polydipsia - came across an account of an ME patient all the way back in 1959 who said she experienced this.



But I haven’t seen it much discussed. When I was describing this to a sympathetic medical academic recently, he wondered if it was something to do with blood flow to the eyes which we know can be a thing in ME/CFS.


Does anyone else experience this and have any ideas or insights?
 
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hapl808

Senior Member
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2,332
Yeah. My vision gets very blurry and it's literally hard to focus, let alone process. But can't think it gets darker for me, other than maybe more light sensitivity which leads me to actively avoid as much light.
 
D

datadragon

Senior Member
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Most likely that is from a further reduction in Vitamin A and Zinc two nutrients very important for the eyes. Zinc is also involved in Vitamin A metabolism and both are lowered during infection/inflammation. Vitamin A (retinol, retinoic acid) is a nutrient important to vision, growth, cell division, reproduction and immunity. Of all eye vitamins for blurry vision, vitamin A is probably the most important. Deficiency in this vitamin can harm both the cornea and retina because vitamin A is necessary for their functioning. This can lead to problems such as blurry vision https://www.aao.org/eye-health/diseases/vitamin-deficiency https://www.healthwebmagazine.com/eye-health/eye-vitamins-for-blurry-vision/

Vitamin A also has antioxidant properties. Immunity is also compromised upon loss of Vitamin A. Vitamin A insufficiency is associated with increased mortality to lung infections and immune responses to infection were compromised upon loss of Vitamin A, and that Retinoic Acid served to activate the T cells driving these responses. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/219513#1

Zinc and Vitamin A are both lowered from inflammation and infection, especially with fever.

Episodes of acute infection deplete body stores of vitamin A. We have found that significant amounts of retinol and retinol-binding protein (RBP) were excreted in the urine during serious infections, whereas only trace amounts were found in the urine of healthy control subjects. Subjects with fever (temperature > or = 38.3 degrees C) excreted significantly more retinol (geometric mean = 1.67 mumol/d) than did those without fever. https://ajcn.nutrition.org/article/S0002-9165(23)18442-5/fulltext Severe infections in adult patients (i.e., sepsis and pneumonia) result in excretion of large quantities of Vitamin A retinol in the urine and depletion of vitamin A stores. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7762530/ https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...h-ascariasis/AF0B9F3B859B6F96E963E488D14477BB Retinol levels decline rapidly as part of the acute phase response https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523068545?via=ihub and this translates into increased susceptibility to infection, creating a “vicious circle” difficult to break https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10466190/

Vitamin A is involved in zinc metabolism and vice versa. For example, Zinc deficiency is thought to interfere with vitamin A metabolism in several ways: (1) Zinc deficiency results in decreased synthesis of retinol-binding protein (RBP), which transports retinol through the circulation to peripheral tissues for its utilization by the body and protects the organism against potential toxicity of retinol; (2) zinc deficiency results in decreased activity of the enzyme that releases retinol from its storage form, retinyl palmitate, in the liver; and (3) zinc is required for the enzyme that converts retinol into retinal. Zinc is involved in that conversion of retinol to retinaldehyde (retinal) and retinal to retinoic acid, respectively - The zinc metalloenzyme ADH is required for this oxidative process. Zinc uptake is lowered and also becomes less available to utilize during chronic inflammation/infection.

The gene encoding alcohol dehydrogenase-1 (Adh1) (which requires Zinc.) greatly facilitates degradative metabolism of excess Vitamin A retinol into retinoic acid which may help protect against toxic effects of high dietary vitamin A intake or supplementation. and also helps convert to the active forms. https://portlandpress.com/biochemj/...lular-retinol-binding?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Since there are no known enzymes that can reduce retinoic acid to retinal, excessive or unneeded retinoic acid is not recycled back to retinol/retinyl ester and must be catabolized and eliminated from the body. This catabolism is catalyzed by one of several cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes which require magnesium. Any factor that lowers magnesium or cytochrome P450 enzymes can lead to excessive retinoic acid. https://www.jlr.org/article/S0022-2275(20)42124-8/fulltext

Over 600 enzyme systems require Magnesium as a cofactor to function optimally, including the cytochrome P450 enzymes (CYP450 https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/pai.1994.8.7

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/could-and-upset-liver-be-a-clue-to-me-cfs.87544/post-2438568
 
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C

crussher

Messages
89
wabi-sabi said:
Ooh I thought you meant darker metaphorically. My vision going off is a sign or orthostatic intolerance for me. That worsens during PEM, so I just lie more down until it passes.
Click to expand...
Ah thanks for me letting me know! I've changed the thread title now. Interesting you also have vision changes, thanks for sharing
 
Mimicry

Mimicry

Senior Member
Messages
180
Hehe, my tablet switches into darker mode when its battery is down to 20%. Perhaps your brain has something similar going on? 😁 Try finding your settings to see if the answer is there or maybe plug yourself into a charger?
 
Mimicry

Mimicry

Senior Member
Messages
180
datadragon said:
Most likely that is from a further reduction in Vitamin A and Zinc two nutrients very important for the eyes. Zinc is also involved in Vitamin A metabolism and both are lowered during infection/inflammation. Vitamin A (retinol, retinoic acid) is a nutrient important to vision, growth, cell division, reproduction and immunity. Of all eye vitamins for blurry vision, vitamin A is probably the most important. Deficiency in this vitamin can harm both the cornea and retina because vitamin A is necessary for their functioning. This can lead to problems such as blurry vision https://www.aao.org/eye-health/diseases/vitamin-deficiency https://www.healthwebmagazine.com/eye-health/eye-vitamins-for-blurry-vision/

Vitamin A also has antioxidant properties. Immunity is also compromised upon loss of Vitamin A. Vitamin A insufficiency is associated with increased mortality to lung infections and immune responses to infection were compromised upon loss of Vitamin A, and that Retinoic Acid served to activate the T cells driving these responses. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/219513#1

Zinc and Vitamin A are both lowered from inflammation and infection, especially with fever.

Episodes of acute infection deplete body stores of vitamin A. We have found that significant amounts of retinol and retinol-binding protein (RBP) were excreted in the urine during serious infections, whereas only trace amounts were found in the urine of healthy control subjects. Subjects with fever (temperature > or = 38.3 degrees C) excreted significantly more retinol (geometric mean = 1.67 mumol/d) than did those without fever. https://ajcn.nutrition.org/article/S0002-9165(23)18442-5/fulltext Severe infections in adult patients (i.e., sepsis and pneumonia) result in excretion of large quantities of Vitamin A retinol in the urine and depletion of vitamin A stores. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7762530/ https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...h-ascariasis/AF0B9F3B859B6F96E963E488D14477BB Retinol levels decline rapidly as part of the acute phase response https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523068545?via=ihub and this translates into increased susceptibility to infection, creating a “vicious circle” difficult to break https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10466190/

Vitamin A is involved in zinc metabolism and vice versa. For example, Zinc deficiency is thought to interfere with vitamin A metabolism in several ways: (1) Zinc deficiency results in decreased synthesis of retinol-binding protein (RBP), which transports retinol through the circulation to peripheral tissues for its utilization by the body and protects the organism against potential toxicity of retinol; (2) zinc deficiency results in decreased activity of the enzyme that releases retinol from its storage form, retinyl palmitate, in the liver; and (3) zinc is required for the enzyme that converts retinol into retinal. Zinc is involved in that conversion of retinol to retinaldehyde (retinal) and retinal to retinoic acid, respectively - The zinc metalloenzyme ADH is required for this oxidative process. Zinc uptake is lowered and also becomes less available to utilize during chronic inflammation/infection.

The gene encoding alcohol dehydrogenase-1 (Adh1) (which requires Zinc.) greatly facilitates degradative metabolism of excess Vitamin A retinol into retinoic acid which may help protect against toxic effects of high dietary vitamin A intake or supplementation. and also helps convert to the active forms. https://portlandpress.com/biochemj/...lular-retinol-binding?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Since there are no known enzymes that can reduce retinoic acid to retinal, excessive or unneeded retinoic acid is not recycled back to retinol/retinyl ester and must be catabolized and eliminated from the body. This catabolism is catalyzed by one of several cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes which require magnesium. Any factor that lowers magnesium or cytochrome P450 enzymes can lead to excessive retinoic acid. https://www.jlr.org/article/S0022-2275(20)42124-8/fulltext

Over 600 enzyme systems require Magnesium as a cofactor to function optimally, including the cytochrome P450 enzymes (CYP450 https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/pai.1994.8.7

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/could-and-upset-liver-be-a-clue-to-me-cfs.87544/post-2438568
Click to expand...
This is super interesting, thank you for the information! I've been taking zinc for a couple months but I ran out of vit A a while ago. I ordered it on iHerb a week ago and am currently waiting for my parcel. I also have blurry vision so it's interesting to see if it will improve.
 
Dysfunkion

Dysfunkion

Senior Member
Messages
389
Mine doesn't get blurry I'd say but it definitely gets darker and more dull. It's a little freaky and in the middle of Winter like this it doesn't help my mental state when everything literally looks so grim.
 
K

kushami

Senior Member
Messages
407
When I have low blood flow to the brain, it definitely affects my vision. I couldn’t say exactly how, as it’s not blurry. Maybe like switching from an older television to a newer one.

Next time this happens I will try to compare the difference and see whether “darker” fits.

Edit: I just saw the post above mentioning “duller” – that fits perfectly. Colours a bit duller, detail not quite there. I have read of the senses being dulled in scientific writing and in literature.
 
C

crussher

Messages
89
kushami said:
When I have low blood flow to the brain, it definitely affects my vision. I couldn’t say exactly how, as it’s not blurry. Maybe like switching from an older television to a newer one.

Next time this happens I will try to compare the difference and see whether “darker” fits.

Edit: I just saw the post above mentioning “duller” – that fits perfectly. Colours a bit duller, detail not quite there. I have read of the senses being dulled in scientific writing and in literature.
Click to expand...
'Duller' also fits for me, thanks.
 
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