Do B12 and Folate increase Histamine?

[newradost]

Hi Topaz,
I have posted these lists color coded for what deficiency and indicated which ones I had from both lists.

Lack of methylfolate or mb12 will both cause high histamine conditions and much greater allergic and chemical reactivity.

Freddd, where I can see those lists you are talking about? 10x in advance

 

[Dorothy Finnigan]

Hi folks,

I know this is an old thread, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried Histame since Dr. Rich recommended it. If so, has it worked?

Lucy, Moon, and Topaz, from the sound of it, you were all considering trying Histame, so I'd love to hear how it went!

Thanks,
Dorothy (a major allergy sufferer)

 

[UM MAN]

HISTAME/DAOSIN work great for me, as does vitamin C. But, my allergy symptoms are not IGE mediated.
Antihistames have little effect when your DAO levels are low.

 

[Dorothy Finnigan]

Um man,

How do you know whether or not your DAO levels are low?

Thanks for the input.

 

[UM MAN]

Great question... Well, I have histamine reactions, itchy roof of my mouth, swollen itchy ears, swollen nasal
passages, excess phlegm..etc. I have very low IgE, and antihistamines do little.. Vitamin C, HISTAME, help.
High histamine foods make things worse. As VEGAS (a member here, not the city) found the web link and info for me, T4 IMPACTS DAO, and Synthroid started my entire histamine problem.

 

[place]

What is Dao.? I have gone far with my methly treatment but a few things remain. Sleep still funky and my sinuses. I have found copper to help somewhat, but would love get rid of the problem.

 

[UM MAN]

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.full

 

[Dorothy Finnigan]

Thanks for posting that study, UM MAN.

I've had food allergies my whole life - and they've continued to get worse (the spectrum of things that give me histimine reactions grows and grows). Even my allergist jokes that I'm allergic to an unusual # of foods and food groups.

I also have seasonal allergies, mold allergies, and allergies to dust-mites and dander, and anti-histamines do seem to help me (although I take high-doses of 3 meds, 2x daily, and I wish they could help more than they do).

I wonder if DAO could help me somewhat? I'm not sure, but I did receive Histame in the mail and my partner and I are going to try taking it.

 

[paul_k]

Hi Topaz,

The over/under methylator is a red herring as far as I am concerned. The lists of symptoms detailing these so-called conditions. Every symptom on each list was a b12 and/or folate deficiency symptom and I and most others had roughly equal numbers from both lists and both lists contained "depression". I used lists combined from several sources. I have posted these lists color coded for what deficiency and indicated which ones I had from both lists.

Lack of methylfolate or mb12 will both cause high histamine conditions and much greater allergic and chemical reactivity.

Hi,

I'm new to this site having been trying to get my head around methylation cycle blocks and histamine intolerance for the past few months and having made most of the common mistakes.

What I have learnt from Dr Ben Lynch is that there are 4 key issues in minimising the chance and severity of Methylfolate side effects (the one I'm most concerned about at the moment being histamine overload, per this post).

1) superoxide dismutase (SOD) may need to be taken in the diet or supplemented. I use wheat or barley grass juice powder and it works well.
2) if glutathione is low it may be beneficial to support liposomally. I also did that for a couple of months.
3) electrolytes are very important as methylation increases cell division and more cells mean greater requirements for key minerals.

....And for where I have just made my latest mistake and where I see the relevance to this post....

4) Methionine. Methionine helps the body make SAM-e which is an important co factor in the HNMT enzyme which degrades intra cellular histamine. Dr lynch says that methyl folate depletes methionine over time unless you are either getting enough protein (and digesting/assimilating it - I thought I was but clearly not possibly due to gut issues) or supplementing. Without methionine your SAM-e production can break down and thus your ability to metabolise intra cellular histamine can break down also. The whole machine just struggles then.

I think this is what happened to me lately.
I kept increasing Methylfolate which obviously depleted my methionine (or my gut issues meant I wasn't making it from protein) and my histamine load has slowly increased and went through the roof in the past few days (itching, insomnia, fatigue, depression). Now I have had to supplement directly with SAM-e in order to try get my histamine burden down, and reduce the methyl folate for a while.
Ultimately I would prefer not to supplement SAM-e directly and to make my own SAM-e from methionine but I also understand that issues with the MAT enzyme can make this process less efficient (I understand that MAT uses magnesium as a co factor).
Also right now I don't know how my body will respond to SAM-e but time will tell.

My net point here is that everybody seems to be saying that folate/b12 are needed and ultimately help in the degradation of histamine via improved methylation. I don't think that's disputed but if the pathways are jammed further down stream it would appear that it's only a matter of time before you run into problems whether it's with histamine overload due to depleted methionine/SAM-e or somewhere/something else in the cycle.

Remember re histamine: it seems you need to be effectively making SAM-e or methyl folate will cause you problems so make sure to get enough methionine

For what it's worth I've added B1 to my protocol in the past few days as I understand (from Ben Lynch) that it helps get methyl histamine out of the body. I am not sure how it does this.

Hopefully this helps somebody.

 

[dannybex]

....And for where I have just made my latest mistake and where I see the relevance to this post....

4) Methionine. Methionine helps the body make SAM-e which is an important co factor in the HNMT enzyme which degrades intra cellular histamine. Dr lynch says that methyl folate depletes methionine over time unless you are either getting enough protein (and digesting/assimilating it - I thought I was but clearly not possibly due to gut issues) or supplementing. Without methionine your SAM-e production can break down and thus your ability to metabolise intra cellular histamine can break down also. The whole machine just struggles then.

I'm bumping this post because this is a common mistake that many, many people on this forum -- including myself -- have made.

B-12 and folate/methylfolate/folinic can indeed increase histamine if one takes too much folate, because it also needs methionine to make the HNMT enzyme that breaks down histamine. Too much folate uses methionine for protein synthesis, and as a result, depletes methionine.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0140673681906504

I kept increasing Methylfolate which obviously depleted my methionine (or my gut issues meant I wasn't making it from protein) and my histamine load has slowly increased and went through the roof in the past few days (itching, insomnia, fatigue, depression). Now I have had to supplement directly with SAM-e in order to try get my histamine burden down, and reduce the methyl folate for a while.

My net point here is that everybody seems to be saying that folate/b12 are needed and ultimately help in the degradation of histamine via improved methylation. I don't think that's disputed but if the pathways are jammed further down stream it would appear that it's only a matter of time before you run into problems whether it's with histamine overload due to depleted methionine/SAM-e or somewhere/something else in the cycle.

Remember re histamine: it seems you need to be effectively making SAM-e or methyl folate will cause you problems so make sure to get enough methionine.

Hopefully this helps somebody.

I hope so too.

 

[forbius]

As I recall histamine is a structural component (correct term might be 'prosthetic group') for enzymes that process folate. B12 is a small part of a cycle that perpetuates folic acid transformation. So if anything, folate might heighten the need for histamine to help build the enzymes that process the folate!

 

[dannybex]

As I recall histamine is a structural component (correct term might be 'prosthetic group') for enzymes that process folate. B12 is a small part of a cycle that perpetuates folic acid transformation. So if anything, folate might heighten the need for histamine to help build the enzymes that process the folate!

Yes, that is correct. This quote is from the late, great Rich Van Konynenberg:

(THF, or tetrahydrofolate) is the fundamental chemically reduced form of folate from which several other reduced folate forms are synthesized, and thus serves as the “hub” of the folate metabolism. THF is also a product of the methionine synthase reaction, and participates in the reaction that converts formiminoglutamate (figlu) into glutamate in the metabolism of histidine. If figlu is found to be elevated in a urine organic acids panel, it usually indicates that THF is low.

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/b-12-the-hidden-story.142/page-132#post-286992

 

[jason30]

Since I take methyl b12 and adenosyl b12 oils my histamine in my system is raising. I suddenly react to foods which contains histamine and react with a lot of histamine to allergens. It's really bad, it affects my sleep.
I wonder what this could be. I don't take a folic acid supplement. Only food which contains folic acid (such as brocolli).
Apart from B12 I take more potassium and magnesium and vitamin D.

My 2 thoughts:
1. Somehow the increase in methylation by the B12 is increasing the histamine levels as well?
2. Could it be indirect? B12 lowers B1 and B2, iron, magnesium and potassium. Could it be that B1 or B2 plays a role in the histamine rise?

 

[dannybex]

Since I take methyl b12 and adenosyl b12 oils my histamine in my system is raising. I suddenly react to foods which contains histamine and react with a lot of histamine to allergens. It's really bad, it affects my sleep.
I wonder what this could be. I don't take a folic acid supplement. Only food which contains folic acid (such as brocolli).
Apart from B12 I take more potassium and magnesium and vitamin D.

My 2 thoughts:
1. Somehow the increase in methylation by the B12 is increasing the histamine levels as well?
2. Could it be indirect? B12 lowers B1 and B2, iron, magnesium and potassium. Could it be that B1 or B2 plays a role in the histamine rise?

See my post above. You need sufficient methionine (a protein / amino acid) to lower histamine, because it's part of the enzyme (along w/b12 and folate) that breaks down histamine.

 

[jason30]

See my post above. You need sufficient methionine (a protein / amino acid) to lower histamine, because it's part of the enzyme (along w/b12 and folate) that breaks down histamine.

Thanks, will check if that helps.