Discussion about Armin labs (Split Thread).

[Marky90]

What is not the case with Lyme, @Marky90?

If Lyme is causing the same damage as non-Lyme ALS, then what leads you to believe Lyme ALS would not result in death?

Same with Lyme myocarditis cases, right? The only way we knew that Lyme caused those three cases of cardiac arrest two years ago in New York was that biopsies were performed. Otherwise those deaths would just go down as heart attacks.

Do we really know that ALS is any different? If Lyme is not suspected, and goes untested, or the tests prove faulty, what makes you so sure that ALS caused by Lyme wouldn't result in death? There may be delays if an ALS patient gets limited abx treatments along the way for different reasons, but if the same mechanics are set in motion that eventually result in what clinicians call ALS, why would it end differently if the cause is a known bacteria?

It is not the case that lyme disease is as morbid as ALS.

Sure, it`s theoretically possible that borrelia can cause ALS - but almost everything is theoretically possible. I see no reason to propose lyme as a more likely cause than other unlikely causes. At the moment the evidence certainly do not suggest a link.

 

[barbc56]

It is not the case that lyme disease is as morbid as ALS.

Sure, it`s theoretically possible that borrelia can cause ALS - but almost everything is theoretically possible. I see no reason to propose lyme as a more likely cause than other unlikely causes. At the moment the evidence certainly do not suggest a link.

Lyme can kill you but the percentage is lower than with ALS. I think ALZ is almost always fatal. It would be interesting to find out why Stephen Hawking is still alive.

But then, dead is dead whatever the chances of morbidity.

 

[duncan]

Agreed, most cases of Lyme are not as morbid as ALS.

As to evidence not suggesting a link, that only carries so much weight once you factor in that A) some researchers are only suggesting Lyme can cause ALS in a small % of ALS cases, and B) there isn't really a coordinated and consistent effort to find out one way or the other.

This might boil down to semantics, but it may be more than that if there is merit to the idea there are multiple causes behind neurodegenerative diseases that so far are mostly defined by their attributes as opposed to their etiology.

It's a cool idea though, one whose opposite side I have argued when it comes to ME/CFS.

So much for consistency on my part...

 

[Marky90]

Agreed, most cases of Lyme are not as morbid as ALS.

As to evidence not suggesting a link, that only carries so much weight once you factor in that A) some researchers are only suggesting Lyme can cause ALS in a small % of ALS cases, and B) there isn't really a coordinated and consistent effort to find out one way or the other.

This might boil down to semantics, but it may be more than that if there is merit to the idea there are multiple causes behind neurodegenerative diseases that so far are mostly defined by their attributes as opposed to their etiology.

I don`t think one will be able to find such links without knowing more about the disease mechanism.. But it would certainly be worthwhile to look at a possible link, although since we know as little about chronic lyme as with ALS, it`s not very easy to conduct a research goal.

I`m all for thinking outside the box, but my gut feeling is that borrelia is not one of the causes.

 

[Marky90]

May i add that the reason for that gut feeling is that ALS is so specific, I would think that active borrelia in the nervous system or whatever would cause a wider range of symptoms.

 

[duncan]

It does cause a wider symptom array typically. This is why I referenced Dr. Dave Martz. He was diagnosed with ALS and even prepared to die, but he suspected Lyme because he had more symptoms than those normally associated with ALS (according to Pam Weintraub in Cure Unknown)

He was treated aggressively with abx and his ALS resolved - if it were indeed ALS.

 

[Marky90]

It does cause a wider symptom array typically. This is why I referenced Dr. Dave Martz. He was diagnosed with ALS and even prepared to die, but he suspected Lyme because he had more symptoms than those normally associated with ALS (according to Pam Weintraub in Cure Unknown)

He was treated aggressively with abx and his ALS resolved - if it were indeed ALS.

Sounds to me like he had lyme most probably?
I`m willing to bet a quite large amount against an potential RCT on AB for ALS succeeding.

 

[duncan]

That's an RCT I'd like to see.

How do you gauge the findings, though? If there is a pathogen at the root of these neuro-diseases, there is no reason that pathogen could not be any one of many - including a broad line of viruses. For those, abx would of course fail.

For now, at least, it would be luck of the draw for the cohort. The theory would have to hold, too, i.e. ALS and MS etc are in fact conditions brought about by pathogens. (as opposed to immune systems running amok.)

Still a neat idea.

 

[paolo]

In this post of my blog (skip the brief introduction in Italian) I have discussed the hypothesis that some LTTs for Lyme disease could have a false positive result in case of patients with gut flora translocation. In particular I describe in detail a possible cross reaction between a T cell epitope of OspC (B. brgdorferi) and a T cell epitope of OprG (Pseudomonas aeruginosa).

PS. I apologize for my bad english.

 

[Biarritz13]

In this post of my blog (skip the brief introduction in Italian) I have discussed the hypothesis that some LTTs for Lyme disease could have a false positive result in case of patients with gut flora translocation. In particoular I describe in detail a possible cross reaction between a T cell epitope of OspC (B. brgdorferi) and a T cell epitope of OprG (Pseudomona aeruginosa).

PS. I apologize for my bad english.

You wrote:
As you can see, OspC from B.burgdorferi sensu stricto is present in both the first and the second set of antigens. Based on what discussed above, we are now able to predict that Th cells from the peripheral blood of a patient with P. aeruginosa translocation due to gut increased permeability, might react in both these assays, thus leading to a false positive LTT test for Lyme disease.


What if you react on the three sets of antigens?

 

[paolo]

The third antigen is a linear epitope of OspA. In this case I think that they don't use the full length OspA, but the peptide 163-175 from OspA, which has a partial sequence homology with a peptide of LFA-1, which is a protein expressed by human leukocytes. If this was the case, a cross reaction with some other pathogen would be less likely, but I have not studied this antigen yet. Moreover, I don't know exactly the antigen used in this set, I'm only guessing.

 

[Biarritz13]

Ok, thanks. Have you tried to reach out Arminlabs to tell them this?

 

[Thinktank]

In this post of my blog (skip the brief introduction in Italian) I have discussed the hypothesis that some LTTs for Lyme disease could have a false positive result in case of patients with gut flora translocation. In particoular I describe in detail a possible cross reaction between a T cell epitope of OspC (B. brgdorferi) and a T cell epitope of OprG (Pseudomona aeruginosa).

PS. I apologize for my bad english.

Interesting. I tested low positive on the LTT and have gut flora translocation, IgA on Pseudomona aeruginosa came back highly positive. Various tests have indicated that my intestinal barrier is compromised.
Have you contacted Dr. Armin Schwarzbach about your findings? It would be interesting to hear what he has to say.

 

[paolo]

Ok. Have you tried to reach out Arminlabs to tell them this?

No. I think that those who produce and offer LTT test for Lyme disease know this problem.

 

[paolo]

Interesting. I tested low positive on the LTT and have gut flora translocation, IgA on Pseudomona aeruginosa came back highly positive. Various tests have indicated that my intestinal barrier is compromised.
Have you contacted Dr. Armin Schwarzbach about your findings? It would be interesting to hear what he has to say.

Against which antigen (or antigens) do you react positive, in the LTT?

 

[Biarritz13]

Interesting. I tested low positive on the LTT and have gut flora translocation, IgA on Pseudomona aeruginosa came back highly positive. Various tests have indicated that my intestinal barrier is compromised.
Have you contacted Dr. Armin Schwarzbach about your findings? It would be interesting to hear what he has to say.

How high were you on the report?

 

[Thinktank]

October 2013:
Borrelia burgdorferi fully antigen / result = +4
Borrelia OSP-mix (OSPA/OSPC/DbpA) / result = 1
Borrelia LFA-1 / result = 0

Reference for each test = < 2

December 2015:
IgA on pseudonomas a. = 12,1 / reference range = < 2

Edit:
I forgot i also had this test done on the same day as i had the LTT done in october 2013. IgA on pseudonomas came back as 0,6 meaning negative.

 

[Biarritz13]

@Thinktank

So your Pseudonomas went from 0,6 to 12,1? Were on you abx?

@paolo

What is the range of Pseudonomas that can cause a cross reactivity on the LTT in your opinion?

 

[Thinktank]

@Thinktank

So your Pseudonomas went from 0,6 to 12,1? Were on you abx?

I have been on many antibiotics for lyme, but not at the time of the blooddraw.
The abx might have increased the intestinal permeability, thus the positive IgA on pseudonomas A. ?

 

[paolo]

@paolo

What is the range of Pseudonomas that can cause a cross reactivity on the LTT in your opinion?

I really don't know. It is difficult to say, since the LTT measures the Th cells response, while the IgA is a response by B cells. Moreover, the IgA is against P. aeruginosa LPS, while the LTT would show a reaction against a surface protein of P. aeruginosa, which is OprG.