Discussion about Armin labs (Split Thread).
- Thread starter justy
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@johnfirb . I agree with @justy. Your LTT result is a strong positive for Borrelia. When I had a test some years ago I had a mail conversation with the director of the lab, A.S., and learnt a lot. Maybe he isn´t too busy but could comment further on your results?
Regarding your absent antibodies that is very often seen among late stage Lyme patients according to my experienced doctor. You´ve probably heard that antibodies might show up after having taken antibiotics for some time.
@Hip, I think it would be wrong to have Lyme patients who had a Bull´s rash as references for evaluating the validity of lab tests. It is assumed by quite a few Lyme doctors that there is a difference in immune defense and reaction among those who get a Bull´s rash and they who don´t.
One argument that has been raised against both culturing blood, and for examination in microscope, has been that it might be necessary to have much more blood in the sample than usually is needed for these kinds of tests. So a negative result might be due to a too small sample instead of a lack of an ongoing Lyme infection.
Regarding your absent antibodies that is very often seen among late stage Lyme patients according to my experienced doctor. You´ve probably heard that antibodies might show up after having taken antibiotics for some time.
@Hip, I think it would be wrong to have Lyme patients who had a Bull´s rash as references for evaluating the validity of lab tests. It is assumed by quite a few Lyme doctors that there is a difference in immune defense and reaction among those who get a Bull´s rash and they who don´t.
One argument that has been raised against both culturing blood, and for examination in microscope, has been that it might be necessary to have much more blood in the sample than usually is needed for these kinds of tests. So a negative result might be due to a too small sample instead of a lack of an ongoing Lyme infection.
Hip
Senior Member
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Interesting. I guess that is just another area of the whole Lyme story where we don't have sufficient scientific understanding.
And also, I was outside 90% of the daytime when I was fit and healthy, I must have been bitten every day by something or other, horse flies, mosquitos, ticks etc. I never bothered about any of the marks they left, put a bit of something on it and got on with life. Only now do I realise the importance of identifying a bulls-eye rash. I think many people will have been naïve like me.
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Hi all,
I believe I contracted lymes when 12 years old in the mid seventies while camping with my brothers and sisters. I pulled a tick the size of a pea from my neck hairline which had been there for some time as it was well bloated. On return home some of us developed ringworm, supposedly picked up from a donkey. I was treated for ringworm when a circular rash developed on my neck but my rash was different to the ringworm rash my brothers and sisters had (theirs were raised whereas mine was a flat red circle) I think lymes has been in my system for the last 40 years and has only become live after suffering bodily trauma 3 years ago. If it had been lying dormant for so long might this effect the antibody result? There are other medical things in my past which with hindsight may be attributable to lymes.
I believe I contracted lymes when 12 years old in the mid seventies while camping with my brothers and sisters. I pulled a tick the size of a pea from my neck hairline which had been there for some time as it was well bloated. On return home some of us developed ringworm, supposedly picked up from a donkey. I was treated for ringworm when a circular rash developed on my neck but my rash was different to the ringworm rash my brothers and sisters had (theirs were raised whereas mine was a flat red circle) I think lymes has been in my system for the last 40 years and has only become live after suffering bodily trauma 3 years ago. If it had been lying dormant for so long might this effect the antibody result? There are other medical things in my past which with hindsight may be attributable to lymes.
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Hi all,
I did my tests via NHS but it's been 4yrs since I got sick. I collapsed at uni 8weeks after studying deer in Richmond park and 4months on from studying wild sheep on Lundy Island which has a few Sika Deer.
My heart went nuts..lost sight temporarily. Within two days fatigue and some sweats..heart flipping in chest...within 3 weeks lost 3 stone, lymph nodes up..dizzyness, tremors and twitches air hunger and waking up gasping for air at night. Couldnt walk far..no strength and sore muscles. I then had memory loss and cognitive issues. Enlarged spleen for 3 months, low white cells bouncing between 0 8 and 2 ever since and liver bloids high that resolved after 3yrs...I've been sick 4 yrs now but seen some improvement but still struggling doing more than light house work or trips out for couple of hours. I have sever panic attacks.
I put myself on Dr Myhills SA diet within 3wks of illness after an african Dr diagnosed ME very quickly. The Lyme specialist said it wouldn't be Lyme.
I have been in New Jersey...Lyme endemic..a few times since 2013 and was bitten numerous times..no idea by what but last time Sept last year...2015 I had a bite with a small pink ring show up around it for 4 days. The Mrs said it's a mozzy bite but I had many and they are all raised and none had rings this was not raised. The ring however was 3quarters and small in size.
I can post results ? Tested +3 +2 and 1 for sensu stricto with titer bartonella and coxsackie.
Positive EBV but then I had a positive EBV after I got sick and I think that was possibly when I was 18 and sweated my way through a week.
I have CD57 count of 63 so low as far as Lyme Drs are concerned but normal in general medical field.
Is a Dark Field Microscopy worth doing to be sure ? The 5% false positive rate concerns me. My NHS last year (yr 3 of illness) had igm of 4 where maximum is 5 and iga of 13.5 where max is 15. My Dr said I have something chronic but was not sure what.
After my armin tests he wants to recheck my spleen size. no idea why unless Lyme enlarges the spleen for years.
Any thoughts all ?
I did my tests via NHS but it's been 4yrs since I got sick. I collapsed at uni 8weeks after studying deer in Richmond park and 4months on from studying wild sheep on Lundy Island which has a few Sika Deer.
My heart went nuts..lost sight temporarily. Within two days fatigue and some sweats..heart flipping in chest...within 3 weeks lost 3 stone, lymph nodes up..dizzyness, tremors and twitches air hunger and waking up gasping for air at night. Couldnt walk far..no strength and sore muscles. I then had memory loss and cognitive issues. Enlarged spleen for 3 months, low white cells bouncing between 0 8 and 2 ever since and liver bloids high that resolved after 3yrs...I've been sick 4 yrs now but seen some improvement but still struggling doing more than light house work or trips out for couple of hours. I have sever panic attacks.
I put myself on Dr Myhills SA diet within 3wks of illness after an african Dr diagnosed ME very quickly. The Lyme specialist said it wouldn't be Lyme.
I have been in New Jersey...Lyme endemic..a few times since 2013 and was bitten numerous times..no idea by what but last time Sept last year...2015 I had a bite with a small pink ring show up around it for 4 days. The Mrs said it's a mozzy bite but I had many and they are all raised and none had rings this was not raised. The ring however was 3quarters and small in size.
I can post results ? Tested +3 +2 and 1 for sensu stricto with titer bartonella and coxsackie.
Positive EBV but then I had a positive EBV after I got sick and I think that was possibly when I was 18 and sweated my way through a week.
I have CD57 count of 63 so low as far as Lyme Drs are concerned but normal in general medical field.
Is a Dark Field Microscopy worth doing to be sure ? The 5% false positive rate concerns me. My NHS last year (yr 3 of illness) had igm of 4 where maximum is 5 and iga of 13.5 where max is 15. My Dr said I have something chronic but was not sure what.
After my armin tests he wants to recheck my spleen size. no idea why unless Lyme enlarges the spleen for years.
Any thoughts all ?
The spleen thing is interesting, my father had that and I suspect he had Lyme (he fell ill with an ME-like disease shortly after moving to the Peak District and going for lots of walks. He thought it was brought on by Mono, I wonder if that can enlarge the spleen too?
Lyme disease is also known as the great imitator and the recent history of Kris Kristofferson is a great example of this as his Alzheimer's turned out to be Lyme disease. People with ALS who don't die within 4-5 years might well have Lyme disease instead of ALS. Illustrating that the clinical picture is only the best "biomarker" when it comes to lyme disease if patients present with the typical Bullseye rash which only happens in 25% of them. Many patients with Lyme disease do not remember being bitten by a tick nor did they remove one.
Everybody who has been following the literature knows that ME is not 1 disease; it either is a number of different ones or it has sub groups.
And it is very likely that some have a chronic infection and quite a number of them will have Lyme disease and not ME, and others have an autoimmune disease.
And what did Dr. Melvin Ramsay say? That an initial infection triggers the immune system which then doesn't switch off.
Marky90
Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance
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In ALS muscles progressively die of, due to not receiving signals from motor neurons. The same is not systemically happening in Lyme disease.
Are you certain about that, @Marky90? What happened with Dr. David Martz?
Isn't ALS an amalgam of downstream effects and symptoms without a known etiology?
Are we sure Lyme ALS isn't having the same effect as non-Lyme ALS - it's just that one can stop the progression with the right mixture and dosage of abx because the agent behind ALS symptoms here is eliminated?
Isn't ALS an amalgam of downstream effects and symptoms without a known etiology?
Are we sure Lyme ALS isn't having the same effect as non-Lyme ALS - it's just that one can stop the progression with the right mixture and dosage of abx because the agent behind ALS symptoms here is eliminated?
Marky90
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Yes, that`s the one thing we do know about ALS. Upper and lower motor neurons die or degenerate, causing progressive weakness and atrophy. Obviously its possible that Lyme can mimic the disease somewhat in the early phases, but generally all ALS-patients go on to die uless you are Stephen Hawkings with superpowers), which is not the case with Lyme.
Stephen Hawking's his father was a doctor experimenting with Lyme disease ...
Marky90
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And so Stephen therefore has Lymes? Seems like a gigantic leap of conclusion..
What is not the case with Lyme, @Marky90?
If Lyme is causing the same damage as non-Lyme ALS, then what leads you to believe Lyme ALS would not result in death?
Same with Lyme myocarditis cases, right? The only way we knew that Lyme caused those three cases of cardiac arrest two years ago in New York was that biopsies were performed. Otherwise those deaths would just go down as heart attacks.
Do we really know that ALS is any different? If Lyme is not suspected, and goes untested, or the tests prove faulty, what makes you so sure that ALS caused by Lyme wouldn't result in death? There may be delays if an ALS patient gets limited abx treatments along the way for different reasons, but if the same mechanics are set in motion that eventually result in what clinicians call ALS, why would it end differently if the cause is a known bacteria?
If Lyme is causing the same damage as non-Lyme ALS, then what leads you to believe Lyme ALS would not result in death?
Same with Lyme myocarditis cases, right? The only way we knew that Lyme caused those three cases of cardiac arrest two years ago in New York was that biopsies were performed. Otherwise those deaths would just go down as heart attacks.
Do we really know that ALS is any different? If Lyme is not suspected, and goes untested, or the tests prove faulty, what makes you so sure that ALS caused by Lyme wouldn't result in death? There may be delays if an ALS patient gets limited abx treatments along the way for different reasons, but if the same mechanics are set in motion that eventually result in what clinicians call ALS, why would it end differently if the cause is a known bacteria?
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@Dr Speedy, what do you mean when you write that Hawking's father was experimenting with Lyme? I had not heard that before.
Reportedly, Willy Burgdorfer contracted Lyme while researching it back in the early 80's.
Reportedly, Willy Burgdorfer contracted Lyme while researching it back in the early 80's.
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ALS can be caused by Lyme? I don't think so.
Chris Kristofferson was not officially diagnosed with alzheimer's. His symptoms mimicked alzheimer's. So any damage to the brain would most likely look different on a scan. He may have significant brain damage from lyme.
Chris Kristofferson was not officially diagnosed with alzheimer's. His symptoms mimicked alzheimer's. So any damage to the brain would most likely look different on a scan. He may have significant brain damage from lyme.
I don't know.
I also don't know whether or not we are dealing with definitional issues.
We know what happens to the body in MS or ALS or Alzheimers, yes, but the verdict is still out on what causes those damages. So what those diseases are, in effect, for the most part, is today defined by the effects seen in those conditions.
If Lyme causes those effects, what is the difference?
If Lyme encephalomyelitis went undiagnosed as a Bb infection, what might the diagnosis be? If no abx were administered, what course would the disease run?
Maybe ALS and MS etc can be caused by many things, just like ME/CFS.
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I think the issue is if a brain scan for someone with Lyme would look the same as a person with ALS, MS, Alzheimer's? If they do show damage to the same areas and the etiology is different it could mean different clinical implications for treatment.
While I don't definitely know the answer to thiis, you pose an interesting question.