Diet to decrease LPS

[Justin30]

Im just gonna chime in here for a second....I researched this topic thoroughly....

LPS is highly toxic leads to sepsis

LPS dysregulates, interupts and damages any area within the nody through endotoxemia

LPS is diffucult to rid from the body in a ME perons...

• ABX are the only thing that we have to combat it
• ABX can cause die off which leads to the bacteria releasing more toxins
• Because people with ME have an issue with detox this can be a problem
• We lack drugs that specifically treat and work on removing LPS from the blood stream
• Many of us are sensitive to ABX
• Are immune systems are compromised and usually are inefficient at clearing anything that is stirred up by LPS
• It is very difficult to repair the gut lining. LPS causes IBS and IBD....
• There is also the is issue of POTS tying into this.
• 80% of immune cells sit just outside of the GI track waiting to gobble up unwanted guests and immune exhaustion likely occurs through mechanism associated to leaky gut.
• LPS dysrupts the breaking of amino acids which is not good at all....these leads to system wid3 dysfunction..
• Large amounts of ABX can permanently alter the flora of the microbiome.

I could go on for hours....this will be the answer to many peoples problems....others will have varying degress of encephalopathy and others will have CFS from immune problems and others will have something completely different....

A diet will not cure this thing what is recommended is to determine what foods you are allergic too first.....rotate the diet daily...try leaky gut supplements.....

Note:

• Their are very little bacteria in the small intestine...SIBO is common but not in all
• Virtually all gram negative bacteria reside in the Large Intesting. Difficult to manipulate LI Microbiome.

I would suggest working with a GI specialist to work on this. Either a good ND or FM Dr.

Something is for surely going on in the gut with this illness as well as detoxification...no doubt about it.

 

[knackers323]

@Justin30 have you tried treating the LI biodome?

ive seen reports that say it can be changed within a matter of weeks of changing the diet.

isn't fecal transplants also usually a quick method?

? too much contradictory info around

 

[Justin30]

have you tried treating the LI biodome?

I am not sure what you mean about LI Biodome? What is this?

ive seen reports that say it can be changed within a matter of weeks of changing the diet.

Leaky Gut? Or Dysbiosis? Degree of LPS in the bloodstream?

I think depending on the severity of the disease process. We as ME patients typically have an overexagerated stress response. This stress response is said to have a direct impact on the intestinal barrier and permeability.

Whenever I do to much or get stressed why does my stomach hurt? Why do symptoms increase?

Intestinal barrier pemeability happens in athletes and CFSs persons. The difference I think is our immune respose.

HIV patients have a drastically altered microbiome and has been proven.

Break down of the instinal barrier can happen, by viruses, bacteria, fungi and parasites.....these if not kept in check by the immune system just initiate a never ending cycle....not to mention if you have bacterial ovrgrowth the way in which you break down and utilize micro and macro nutrients is seriously disturbed leading to = dysregulation of all vital internal processes and eventually damage...

isn't fecal transplants also usually a quick method?

Maybe for some but many hoare stories have been mentioned as well...

There is something wrong with our immune systems. So throwing a bunch of normal bugs in might not be the solution to a compromised intestinal barrier and a detox and mitochondrial problem.....

Other than treating C Difficile....i have never heard of it correcting leaky gut or intestinal permeability....

That being said is the gut problem the chicken or the egg?

We know theirs a problem with gut but this is but one piece of tangled pile of S***

too much contradictory info around

I think so...the info is incomplete...scattered and is so new in light of where we are currently in science...

the bugs in the gut are expressions of our genes was the last one that I was reading....each colony of bugs is responsible for some form of physiological process.....we through years of poor diet, ABX, Meds, toxins, and vaccines have messed things up for our group.....is my thoughts

They are also starting to discover the gut brain axis....implications of the vagues nerve as it connects to everything that gets messed up in ME including that it has more connections to the GUT then anywhere else....

The final point ill make is that ME/CFS is not one disease in my eyes....its like cancer...there are many types with different treatments....

Plus i think a group is Drs that have openly missed mild Encephalitis and Encephlomylietis....which is sad because that just goes to show how must public and private healthcare systems fail patients by not testing and looking for the problem when the window of opportunity to make a difference is measured in days and weeks upon onset....

Ex. In the ER at onset....

Patient...Dr I am having some very strange things happening like my vision is blurred, i cant concentrate, I am dizzy, i have extreme pain throughout my back and head, I cant seem to walk very far, I have numbness and tingling, I cant sleep.....etc...

Dr. Responds....you just have a viral infection it will go away....nurse give him some morphine for the pain

Then they send you on your way with a test that says high CRP or ESR.....and do nothing further discounting all neurological systems...to a virus that will clear on its own....

Now with 17 - 22 million worldwide....19.5 being the likely # and 25% being severe you are likely looking at 4,875,000 people that have the permanent damage.....just from ME not including the #s though smaller in clearly definable enchalopathies and myeleitis....

Try to to google search long term issues and sequale of encephalitis or encephlomylietis...sure wont turn out much...1 website...

I wonder why that is?

 

[knackers323]

hi @Justin30 thanks for the reply.

the LI biodome is what you referred to the large intestine bacteria that you said was difficult to manipulate. this is what I was talking about when I said I have heard that studys show it can be changed within a few weeks by diet.

I think you are probably looking at things in the right direction.

my illness began with an unexplained bout of the worst stomach cramps I have ever felt. went to hospital 3 times thinking it may have been appendicitis.

the cramps went away but the overwhelming weakness and exhaustion remained.

ive had numerous fecal tests that show I have a dysbiosis but then I think just about everyone in the western world would .the last dr I seen said his test result looks worse than mine and he feels fine, but then based on my history he recommended I go and get a fecal transplant anyway.

ive always had extremely dry skin and did take antibiotics 2 to 3 times per year ((candida?) fecal tests say yeast is within normal range but ive heard that this the testing for candida is unreliable) for for pharyngitis in the 4 to 5 years prior to getting the cramps. oddly I have not had the pharyngitis since. upregulated immune system?

since i got sick ive always felt better when i don't eat. now if i stick to a very clean diet of mostly salads i still get that improvement. previously i have gotten a huge effect within hours of taking a supplement that is the crushed up shells of the lacto rhamnosus gut bacteria. my energy came back and the hot feeling i always have went away.

based on that i recently took a live probiotic that consisted of lacto rhamnosus and reuteri along with a heap of bifido species( mylast fecal test showed i have zero rhamnosus and bifido as well as overgrowths of gram negative bacteria).

again the heat toxic, hot feeling began to go away and my energy and life started returning. i even got cocky and began deviating from the diet but the symptoms began returning.

went back on the diet then ran out of the product and the symptoms quickly came back. i tried the crushed up rhamnosus supplement again and it didn't have the same effect but my diet wasn't as strict as when it did work.

i previously had a similar effect from pycnogenol, again it only worked when i was strict with the diet.

previously i took the antibiotic clarithromycin for t gut dysbiosis and within a day felt a huge improvement, thought if i feel this good after a day then i will only get better and better. told everyone i though i had found the answer.still didn't feel 100% but began exercising etc. took it for a week and within a day of stopping i felt terrible again. the dr said the treatment was one week on and three off, so i waited and got the exact same effect.

told the Dr and he said to continue with the 3 and 1 protocol, this time i used azithromycin, the effect was similar but not as strong. got fed up with feeling better than waiting and ended up getting sidetracked looking for other answers.

all the other drs said because it worked so quick it was probably due to immune modulatory effects and not because the abx were killing anything.

they are probably right. as one of the many effects of pycnogenol is immune modulation and these things would help within a few hours and only last for a matter of hours unless i redosed. i was also taking big doses.

the question is, what is causing this immune dysfunction/overreaction. is it the gut bacteria themselves, the original infection i got or damage to the nervous system caused by it or has it triggered an autoimmune response?

autoimmunity is in my family. one is gut related as my brother has crohns disease.

the other thing that i found has a huge effect as ive heard others do is HGH. is it because it makes you feel good in general or the healing effect it has on the gut and its lining? the gut is known to have the most HGH receptors of anywhere in the body. this is why bodybuilders get the swollen gut.

so many questions and not enough answers

 

[kangaSue]

And although "Livestrong.com" typically offers craptastic information, this page might actually be worth checking out:

For a better article;
http://gutcritters.com/intestinal-alkaline-phosphatase-gut-health/

 

[kangaSue]

Also, there was another thread on this, and although a couple years old, maybe some of the peeps on that thread eventually found a link?

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...hosphatase-maintains-microbial-balance.30173/

It said in the above thread
"Butyrate is a short chain fatty acid (SCFA) Butyrate is made in the lower colon by bacteria and taken up by the colonocytes, the cells that line the colon. It then becomes an important food for those cells. Lacking good bacteria in our colon, such as when we take antibiotics, can lead to an insufficient supply of butyrate.

Butyrate is used in a wide array of neurological disorders. The research reports its ability to elevate cellular enzymes such as alkaline phosphatase and insufficient sodium and chloride levels. "

Miyarisan should help in that case

 

[adam12]

LPS is used here as a diagnostic marker for dysbiosis. It is part of the cell wall of gram negative bacteria and causes an immune response. If LPS gets through the gut wall and into the bloodstream, we put up a fight. Don't worry about the LPS in the bblood, the body will get rid of it. Instead, decrease gut permeability. Giloteaux et.al. just showed reduced microbiome (genes of the bacteria in the gut) diversity and increased permeability. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918027/. Others on this tread talk about fermented food and butyrate. Fermented foods may help restore lost bacteria. Prebiotics, those pesky indigestible fibers will feed them and allow them to thrive. And that restored microbiome will make butyrate keeping the gut lining cells healthy. Viola, lower LPS. Easy peasy. In theory, anyway. Go see drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com. She writes about this more extensively.

 

[rosie26]

LPS is used here as a diagnostic marker for dysbiosis. It is part of the cell wall of gram negative bacteria and causes an immune response. If LPS gets through the gut wall and into the bloodstream, we put up a fight. Don't worry about the LPS in the bblood, the body will get rid of it. Instead, decrease gut permeability. Giloteaux et.al. just showed reduced microbiome (genes of the bacteria in the gut) diversity and increased permeability. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918027/. Others on this tread talk about fermented food and butyrate. Fermented foods may help restore lost bacteria. Prebiotics, those pesky indigestible fibers will feed them and allow them to thrive. And that restored microbiome will make butyrate keeping the gut lining cells healthy. Viola, lower LPS. Easy peasy. In theory, anyway. Go see drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com. She writes about this more extensively.

What about for other microbiome's like the vagina. Where LPS could be a problem. I contracted reactive arthritis from chlamydia trac. when I was 20 years old and was never the same after it. I really believe that this started the whole process off in regards to my getting very sick with ME via the flu years later. Any ideas? for this lovely area of microbome.

 

[adam12]

I don't have a vagina so, naturally, I am very interested in vagina. ; ) But seriously, gut microbiome is only one area of study. No pun intended. Somewhere there's an image of all the places that have been studied. There's even one for penal glans with a commentary on how that might affect vaginal microbiome. The PLOS paper is somewhat controversial, BTW. Back to the vagina. Quickly google it this morning. Found,
Translating the vaginal microbiome: gaps and challenges.
https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13073-016-0291-2. Gaps and challenges is my usual experience in this area. But this article addresses the protective effects of lactic acid and names Lactobacillus as the genus that makes up this special area's microbiome. Yogurt douche, anyone? At this point, it is important to note that I am not a medical professional nor do I play one on TV and in no way do I give medical advice except to family members who know better than to listen to me. (I am very prone to doctor's hypochondria, and have every disease I read about. Which makes my wife's trips to her gyn interesting...) Go see drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com, again. I don't remember her specifically addressing Bacterial Vaginosis but her herbal gut remedies may be interesting.

 

[rosie26]

I don't have a vagina so, naturally, I am very interested in vagina. ; ) But seriously, gut microbiome is only one area of study. No pun intended. Somewhere there's an image of all the places that have been studied. There's even one for penal glans with a commentary on how that might affect vaginal microbiome. The PLOS paper is somewhat controversial, BTW. Back to the vagina. Quickly google it this morning. Found,
Translating the vaginal microbiome: gaps and challenges.
https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13073-016-0291-2. Gaps and challenges is my usual experience in this area. But this article addresses the protective effects of lactic acid and names Lactobacillus as the genus that makes up this special area's microbiome. Yogurt douche, anyone? At this point, it is important to note that I am not a medical professional nor do I play one on TV and in no way do I give medical advice except to family members who know better than to listen to me. (I am very prone to doctor's hypochondria, and have every disease I read about. Which makes my wife's trips to her gyn interesting...) Go see drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com, again. I don't remember her specifically addressing Bacterial Vaginosis but her herbal gut remedies may be interesting.

Thanks for looking into the vagina for me. ; ) Seriously though, you know what I mean.

I read recently that the vagina microbiome had high lactic acid if I remember rightly. I was a bit shocked because we have a problem with lactic acid in our muscles with ME. I wonder if I am getting even more of this. I did check out Bacterial Vaginosis years ago but don't think it really matches and I have had lots of tests and never been told I have it that I can remember. Also I have been on a lot of antibiotics for different reasons and was also on antibiotics for six months straight at my severe ME onset. And I never noticed any changes in microbiome back to pre-infection 'normal'. So it has to be something else. I wonder if it is the lactic acid which is causing the problem. I could be over-protected with lactic acid. It does feel over-protected too.

Perhaps I should try yoghurt. I don't know the make-up of yoghurt. Would it produce more lactic acid or lessen it I wonder?

It's so good to hear more microbiome research taking place.
If you come across any other interesting vaginal microbiome research by chance, I would be very interested.

 

[adam12]

Thanks for looking into the vagina for me. ; ) Seriously though, you know what I mean...

Perhaps I should try yoghurt. I don't know the make-up of yoghurt. Would it produce more lactic acid or lessen it I wonder?

Hey, glad to look into it for you!
From the article:
Historically, the presence of Lactobacillus spp. has been thought to be the sine qua non of healthy vaginal microbial communities in reproductive-age women. These species, L. crispatus, L. iners, L. gasseri, and L. jensenii, seem to be specific to the human vagina, where they leverage a unique anaerobic nutritional environment to produce copious amounts of lactic acid as a fermentation product and a low protective pH (3.5–4).

The thinking is that a healthy "coating" of Lactobacillus is normal down there, making conditions too acid (low pH) and too high in lactic acid for bad bacteria. I like the author's use of the word copious. My opinion is that your critters are not producing too much lactic acid. For this logic, I turn to wine and fermentation in general. You see, any microbe can not out-grow their food. Grapes have more sugar than wheat so wine has more alcohol than beer. Admittedly, an alternative is that your vagina has more carbohydrates to ferment. I don't know anything about that. (Crude joke with the words sweet and vagina deleted here,)

I think it's more likely, given the history you mentioned, normal healthy never came back for you. There are papers describing how dietary change causes extinction of some normal bacteria after a few generations. Antibiotics are designed to cause extinction. You seem to recognize there is very little difference between a vagina and the gut. True in one place, likely true in the other.

Little did I know you would take me seriously when I joked about yogurt. The article has this to say, "We still have an incomplete understanding of this balancing act, which requires an evolved and complex recognition system at the mucosal surfaces that combines innate and adaptive immune responses." And it identifies 4 unique species, see above, unique to a lady's special place. You would be taking things into our own hands if you tried to introduce a change there. The best informed scientists don't know how to recreate a normal community in a vagina. (I'm having too much fun here.) I have only seen L. gasseri, in probiotic blends.

But. (Really? I'm going there? Yes. I'm a biologist by training and making stuff up as I go along does not phase me.) So, if you return your attention to the gut, patients have been cured of C. dif and helped with IBS by treatments of, yes that's right, fecal transplants. The idea is that the microbiome to too difficult to characterize right now but a total replacement might just do the trick. By analogy, maybe you and a girlfriend with no female complaints... There's no research on this. No one has taken time to stick their nose in someone else's business.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to be so inappropriate. It helps to know you will never find me.

 

[rosie26]

I have enjoyed your humour immensely and thanks for elaborating. I still need to go back and read over your post slowly and I may come back to you again.

The last bit about the transplants is something I have never thought of, which is amazing because I have read so many threads on the gut transplants. I can't see myself doing something like that but...it's interesting, really interesting. Hey, thank you @adam12 and thanks for dropping in and hope to see you some more around the place.

 

[ebethc]

Im just gonna chime in here for a second....I researched this topic thoroughly....
...
A diet will not cure this thing what is recommended is to determine what foods you are allergic too first.....rotate the diet daily...try leaky gut supplements.....

Note:

• Their are very little bacteria in the small intestine...SIBO is common but not in all
• Virtually all gram negative bacteria reside in the Large Intesting. Difficult to manipulate LI Microbiome.

I would suggest working with a GI specialist to work on this. Either a good ND or FM Dr.

Something is for surely going on in the gut with this illness as well as detoxification...no doubt about it.

Is there a test that proves that you have LPS outside your intestines?
Which leaky gut supplements do you recommend?

 

[rosie26]

@ebethc

Justin30 passed away suddenly last year. RIP Justin.