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Deuterium detrimental to mitochondria?

sb4

Senior Member
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Been talk of this in other forums and it ties in to the idea that light, water, and mitochondria are huge when it comes to health.

Basically deuterium is hydrogen but with a neutron as well as a proton in the center. This makes D heavier the H. It also changes the bond angle between the 2 hydrogens/deuterium in H2O. It changes the absorption spectrum of water (this has to be significant). It does other things like freezes at 4C istead of 0C, changes the surface tension of water and the clusters. I think it changes how H/D functions electrically and a bunch of other stuff as well.

We all seem to agree that mitochondria are hugely important. Mito pump H/D across the IMM and then allow them to flow back into the cell through the ATPase to produce ATP. As far as I understand it, though could be wrong, because D is heavier it causes problems when pumping or going through the ATPase, like a stutter.
I think how the water in mitochondria can absorp (red) light will also be affected.

Normal drinking water is around 150ppm D though this varies with a number of factors (latitude, temperature, etc). Our bodies and other living things naturally depelete deuterium as our healthy bodies measure less D than that of the enviroment.

Ketogenic fats tend to be deuterium depleted, this will mean the water in mitochondria will be D depleted as fats make a lot of mitochondrial water, this also means you will be drinking less water. It appears plants put their deuterium in fruits so these have higher levels.

The Rx for this so far seems to be ketosis and drinking DDW (though this is difficult to get). It appears there are other things one can do and I will update this thread if I find them.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18815148
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445928/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4917
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3703265/
 

sb4

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United Kingdom
Previous research has shown a kinetic isotope effect of water as a solvent, with 100% D2O slowing the rate of ubiquinol derivative oxidation around 400-fold [54]. However, whilst deuterium within natural water range (89–155 ppm) is unlikely to have a significant effect on most chemical reactions, respiration in mitochondria may be a special case, as it involves a connected sequence of proton-coupled electron transfers. Very low levels of deuterium have been shown to have an impact on this process [55] and may account for some of the biological effects we have observed in our mouse paradigms.

A mechanism, by which water with reduced deuterium content exhibits antidepressant-like properties, remains to be elucidated. Based on currently available literature and own preliminary results, various speculations concerning this matter can be proposed. First, replacement of normal water with water of lower viscosity could exert physicochemical effects, leading to increased fluidity of the cell membranes and less rigid organization of phospholipid bilayers [56]; [57] ; [58] which can, in turn alter the dispersion of neurotransmitter receptors and increase receptor affinity [59] ; [60], affect passive blood brain barrier permeability [61] and metabolism of arachidonic acid and calcium-dependent receptor binding [62]. Currently unpublished work from our group suggests that epigenetic and post-translational regulation mechanisms may underlie the effect of D91 treatment, based on limited gene expression changes, and there may also be an involvement of factors of synaptic plasticity and BDNF/TrkB signaling.

6. Conclusions
Taken together, our study demonstrates that rates of depression correlate with geographical distribution of deuterium in the natural water in the US population. Substitution of normal drinking water with deuterium-depleted water in mice counteracts the behavioral, transcriptional and proliferative changes typical of the depressive-like state, which was comparable to the effects of the SSRI citalopram. In naïve mice, consumption of deuterium depleted water results in changes of EEG parameters of sleep that are reminiscent of the effects of noradrenaline and serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Thus, deuterium-depleted drinking water could present a novel prophylactic strategy for depression.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166432814004884

Study shows that mice with DDW (Deuterium Depleted Water) respond to stress better than with normal water and very similar to mice on normal water + citalopram (anti depressant drug).

The above paragraph in the discussion interests me. Ubiquinol can by significantly affected by even small changes in D it seems. Increased deuterium slows down ubiquinol oxidation, this must mean ubiquinol spends more time reduced, could this result in excess reverse electron flow meaning increased superoxide generation?

Based on the results in ref. 29, the colossal kH/kD KIEs result from a relatively small overlap between the reactant and product H or D vibrational wavefunctions arising from large hydrogen transfer distances.
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/36/13138.full

Difficult understanding this one, but it's the paper referenced above that shows a 440 fold increase in ubiquinol oxidation with 100% H2O compared to 100% D2O.

Abstract
Relationship between natural concentration of heavy water isotope homologs in natural water and the kinetics of H(2)O(2) generation by isolated rat liver mitochondria in the presence of succinic acid as the substrate was studied. Natural concentrations of heavy water isotopologs significantly inhibited the studied reaction. The decrease in heavy isotopolog content in natural water leads to disinhibition and significant acceleration of the studied reaction.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17415464

It seems here they looked at how well the rat liver mitochondria ETC responds to either H or D. With D less H2O2 was produced from the added succinic (from reverse electron transport) and more with H. Backing up the previous study claiming less oxidation of ubiquinol.

http://www.positivehealth.com/artic...d-water-in-treatment-and-prevention-of-cancer

This article looks at DDW effects on cancer. It shows DDW can shrink tumors and produces significantly better outcomes than conventional treatment alone. It speculates that tumor cells mitochondria can't handle the decrease in deuterium wheras normal cells can. This ties in with what I've read on higher Deuterium being pro growth (kids need it to grow, etc).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18815148

DDW on lung cancer patients.

http://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1115&context=grad_research_posters

This seems to suggests that most drinking water is around 140-160ppm D, so we would need to find another source to get to <125ppm.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
It's interesting what Wikipedia says about heavy water D2O (ie, water based on two atoms of deuterium and one atom of oxygen):
High concentrations of heavy water (90%) rapidly kill fish, tadpoles, flatworms, and Drosophila. Mammals (for example, rats) given heavy water to drink die after a week, at a time when their body water approaches about 50% deuteration.

However, you find hard hardly any heavy water D2O molecules in the normal water we drink, but more common in normal water is semiheavy water HDO molecules (ie, water based one atom of deuterium, one atom of regular hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen). Indeed, it says here that:
In normal water, about 1 molecule in 3,200 is HDO (one hydrogen in 6,400 is in the form of D), and heavy water molecules (D2O) only occur in a proportion of about 1 molecule in 41 million (i.e. one in 6,400^2). Thus semiheavy water molecules are far more common than "pure" (homoisotopic) heavy water molecules.

So the water we drink mainly contains H2O, with one molecule in every 3,200 being HDO (the semiheavy water molecule), and one molecule in every 41,000,000 being D2O (the heavy water molecule).



This seems to suggests that most drinking water is around 140-160ppm D, so we would need to find another source to get to <125ppm.

It says here that a deuterium-depleted drinking water product called Qlarivia from Romania and containing 25 ppm deuterium (compared to the 150 ppm in normal water) is available for sale here, but costs $90 for 3 liters, so that's far beyond most people's budgets (because people normally consume around 3 liters of water a day from food and beverages).


I found this video about making your own DDW in the freezer; it's based on the fact that semiheavy water freezes at a higher temperature of 3.8 °C, which is almost 4 degrees higher than the 0 °C freezing point of regular water.

However, it does not provide any way to check that the water you produce by this simple freezing method is deuterium-depleted.
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
A link between aging and D is well established. D2O concentrations exceeding the natural level resulted in numerous adverse effects: (a) increased viral mutation rates (Konrad, 1960); (b) deuteration of synthetic estrogen hormones weakened its estrogenic properties (Thompson, 1963); (c) deuterated enzymes exhibited conformational changes, affecting their active sites (Van Hook, 1971); (d) the skin became enriched in deuterium along a temporal aging axis (Griffiths, 1973); (e) reduced the life-span of mice (Czajka and Finkel, 1960). Notably, the effect of lower than natural D concentrations on longevity has yet to be investigated.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4917383/

Some interesting stuff here with D, increased viral mutation rates, weakend hormones, enzymes changed that affect active sites and increased aging.

Cell division is sensitive to intracellular changes in deuterium concentration, and a normal concentration of deuterium is essential to initiate and to maintain normal cellular growth (14). Our results appear to support the hypothesis of Laskey et al, who hypothesized that mechanisms exist in both animal and plant cells that detect changes in deuterium concentration (19). It is necessary to reach the threshold of intracellular D/H to initiate cell division. When cells are cultured in a medium with low deuterium concentration, proliferation is inhibited due to the increased time required to reach the appropriate D/H ratio. In higher organisms, a regulatory system has developed over millions of years, which is sensitive to intracellular changes in D/H. The D/H ratio can increase more rapidly in normal than in tumor cells (19). Tumor cells have a higher growth rate than normal cells as a result of consuming a greater quantity of deuterium (20). We observed that in vitroproliferation of tumor cells was inhibited by DDW, whereas proliferation of normal cells was not, suggesting that DDW may influence the D/H ratio in tumor cells, which, in turn, affects the growth rate.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445928/
 

sb4

Senior Member
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1,654
Location
United Kingdom
I found this video about making your own DDW in the freezer; it's based on the fact that semiheavy water freezes at a higher temperature of 3.8 °C, which is almost 4 degrees higher than the 0 °C freezing point of regular water.

They where talking about that over on the kruse forum but there are problems with the surface water getting cool first so not nessacarily getting the D2O.
Someone mentioned cooling from the bottom that way the water would be cooled more uniformally as the lower density cold water would rise and the warmer water would fall get cooled and repeat. No idea if thats right are not.

There is a company that measures water https://www.cignaturehealth.com/ and also has a breath test and other things you can use to test your levels.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
They where talking about that over on the kruse forum but there are problems with the surface water getting cool first so not nessacarily getting the D2O.

Note that there are negligible amounts of D2O molecules in normal water; it's the HDO molecules in normal water that have most of the deuterium.
 

sb4

Senior Member
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1,654
Location
United Kingdom
Note that there are negligible amounts of D2O molecules in normal water; it's the HDO molecules in normal water that have most of the deuterium.
I am aware but you are right, I was just being lasy though I now see I can just as easily abreviate to HDO :thumbsup:
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,808
As an aside, it's amazing that the deuterium found in just 1 liter of normal water would provide the same energy as 500 liters of petrol (gasoline). 1

So you can see how our energy problems would be solved once we figure out how to create a controlled fusion reaction which utilizes this energy within deuterium.
 

sb4

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Location
United Kingdom
Come across Deuterium depletion and HBOT a couple of times

http://sidmap.eu/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Science_Friday_Dec13_2013_SIDMAP-EU-Combined.pdf

On here they deuterium deplete with HBOT and ketogenic diet.

and the same in here

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987715004399

I am not sure how it works though I`ve heard that O2 combines preferentially with D (as opposed to H) to form HDO. Could the extra oxygen in blood from HBOT get in to cells where it increase ETC flow using fat (from keto which is deuterium depleted compared to carbs) as the fuel to create DDW inside the cell, replacing higher D water?
I don't know at this point but it seems to make sense and would perhaps suggest that high carb and HBOT might make you have higher D in cells. IDK but fat does require more O2 than carbs.

@Jesse2233
 

anne_likes_red

Senior Member
Messages
1,103
FWIW @sb4 I noticed a similar improvement in symptoms from HBOT as I do from cold induced thermogenesis. Ketogenic diet also suits me really well (symptom reduction wise) much of the time.
I've just started researching ddw....fascinating. Thanks for bringing it up here! :)
 

sb4

Senior Member
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1,654
Location
United Kingdom

Very interesting vid, Johnjoe McFadden basically summing up his book, Life at the Edge (I highly recommend). I read this last year yet somehow forgot about what he says about deuterium, probably because I didn't think it was important.

Hydride and dehydrogenase reactions, like those vital to the TCA and the mitochondria, are 50x slower with Deuterium compared to Protium/Hydrogen. This is due to proton tunneling. Similar story with DNA, mutation rate it appears is reduced with deuterium compared to hydrogen. That sounds like a good thing but I don't know much about it, however I have heard that D alters genetic expresion so who knows what else it does.
 

tango

Senior Member
Messages
165
Location
New Zealand

Very interesting vid, Johnjoe McFadden basically summing up his book, Life at the Edge (I highly recommend). I read this last year yet somehow forgot about what he says about deuterium, probably because I didn't think it was important.

Hydride and dehydrogenase reactions, like those vital to the TCA and the mitochondria, are 50x slower with Deuterium compared to Protium/Hydrogen. This is due to proton tunneling. Similar story with DNA, mutation rate it appears is reduced with deuterium compared to hydrogen. That sounds like a good thing but I don't know much about it, however I have heard that D alters genetic expresion so who knows what else it does.
Very interesting, Thank you.

I drink rainwater with physical filters and UV filtration. Does anyone whether rainwater has more or less deuterium than other forms of water ?
 

sb4

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Location
United Kingdom
Very interesting, Thank you.

I drink rainwater with physical filters and UV filtration. Does anyone whether rainwater has more or less deuterium than other forms of water ?
It would depend where you live, further from equator and further in land = less D.
 

tango

Senior Member
Messages
165
Location
New Zealand
It would depend where you live, further from equator and further in land = less D.
Aha! I am well south of the Equator but near the sea.

Does being in a place with a big hole in the Ozone layer influence deuterium at all?
 

anne_likes_red

Senior Member
Messages
1,103
They where talking about that over on the kruse forum but there are problems with the surface water getting cool first so not nessacarily getting the D2O.
Someone mentioned cooling from the bottom that way the water would be cooled more uniformally as the lower density cold water would rise and the warmer water would fall get cooled and repeat. No idea if thats right are not.

There is a company that measures water https://www.cignaturehealth.com/ and also has a breath test and other things you can use to test your levels.

The past couple of weeks I've been cooling uv treated spring water in jars in the freezer until the water in the centre of the jars is around 2 degrees c. I'm insulating the jars from the top down - attempting to freeze from the bottom up. The ice rises, but I do also get a frozen layer on the bottom of the jar. When this happens I separate the water from the ice.
I'm doing this 5 times, discarding the ice that forms in 2 1/2 hours the first time then progressively less time each cycle as the amount reduces.
I'm ending up with approx 350 mls from a 900 ml starting place...so it's kind of labour intensive!
Will post info in Kruse circles in due course because I'm almost sure I can get deuterium measured at a geoscience and isotope research facility near me. One of my boys science teachers works there and he's taken an interest.
 

anne_likes_red

Senior Member
Messages
1,103
Aha! I am well south of the Equator but near the sea.

Does being in a place with a big hole in the Ozone layer influence deuterium at all?

The suggestion is we may need it (depletion, not deuterium!) more but this can also be achieved by way of ketogenic diet, and Buteyko breathing I believe. I've found both those things helpful - as well as HBOT and cold thermogenesis which may be less appealing. ;)
I'm not sure if you can even get HBOT treatment in NZ anymore.
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
Does being in a place with a big hole in the Ozone layer influence deuterium at all?
According to Kruse yes, it matters in a big way. He says all Australians should be drinking DDW. I'm not sure on the mechanism behind it (ozone = higher D) though.

The past couple of weeks I've been cooling uv treated spring water in jars in the freezer until the water in the centre of the jars is around 2 degrees c. I'm insulating the jars from the top down - attempting to freeze from the bottom up. The ice rises, but I do also get a frozen layer on the bottom of the jar. When this happens I separate the water from the ice.
I'm doing this 5 times, discarding the ice that forms in 2 1/2 hours the first time then progressively less time each cycle as the amount reduces.
I'm ending up with approx 350 mls from a 900 ml starting place...so it's kind of labour intensive!
Will post info in Kruse circles in due course because I'm almost sure I can get deuterium measured at a geoscience and isotope research facility near me. One of my boys science teachers works there and he's taken an interest.
That's very interesting and I would be very interested in the results. I am skeptical of these methods however.

The suggestion is we may need it (depletion, not deuterium!) more but this can also be achieved by way of ketogenic diet, and Buteyko breathing I believe. I've found both those things helpful - as well as HBOT and cold thermogenesis which may be less appealing. ;)
I'm not sure if you can even get HBOT treatment in NZ anymore.

I too have been recently practicing Buteyko. It definitely helps a little as I was taking deep breathes a lot, especially after eating as I felt like I need air. Although I was breathing through the nose and into the belly, my breaths where too deep and fast. I have now switched to mouse like breathing and am benefiting from however I have started it with a bunch of other things I'm trying (again) so the benefits are hard to decipher.

UPDATE TO THREAD:
May as well post what I've been doing and learned.

I recently got my early D saliva test back from early Jan. My D is 149ppm, optimal is <130, elevated is 130-150, saturated is 150+. So I am elevated and just below saturated. It seems most of the people who have took this test are at around the same level as me, even the healthy people who are doing ketosis etc. This tells me that the water supply far outweighs the food choices you make. You may be getting say 200g a day of 120ppm fat, say 50g of 155ppm carbs, and 100g 140ppm of protien, but you will be drinking around 2L (2000g???) of 150ppm water.

I have been drinking roughly 110ppm water since January the 13th. I think this should have DD me a bit by now. I have made improvements in this time but like I always do, I have been trying various things that have also gave me improvements so its very hard to untangle what has done what. I have also been doing Buteyko, DHEA + PREG in small doses, mouth cleaning stuff, and some dietary changes. I intend to do another month of DDW then retest my levels.

What I have learned on how it works has been updated slightly. Basically if the mitochondrial matrix water has too much D, fumarate hydrotase will be slower due to the kenetic isotope effect. This will cause not only less electrons going to the ECT but also the TCA being backed up such that the glucose is used in the cytosol (higher D) instead of mito water. This is kind of like the Warburg effect. The glucose being used is then deuterium loaded, so when it is used in DNA, etc, the DNA now has too much D, it's structure changes and its also a victim of the kenetic isotope effect. This is obviously bad.
Now if the glucose could get in the mitochondria it would get D depleted (at least I think) by the reactions in the TCA that create CO2, the D leaves with the CO2 and is replaced by DD mito water. The mito water is made up of one H from cytosolic water and one H from food (NADH or FADH). So this would mean, since cytosolic water is ~150ppm, you need the food you eat to be deuterium depleted to have DD matrix water, no? That or you need to deplete the D off of food after you have eaten it.
I'm really not sure on this however as it does not explain those people who seem healthy with high metabolisms who eat lots of sugar. Are their mitos full of D water? I don't think so.

I'm interested in how mito water gets D depleted, how it stays D depleted, and what causes it to become D rich and mess up fumarate hydrotase. Any help in this regard would be appreciated.
 

tango

Senior Member
Messages
165
Location
New Zealand
The suggestion is we may need it (depletion, not deuterium!) more but this can also be achieved by way of ketogenic diet, and Buteyko breathing I believe. I've found both those things helpful - as well as HBOT and cold thermogenesis which may be less appealing. ;)
I'm not sure if you can even get HBOT treatment in NZ anymore.

Glad to hear you improved. The question is whether it had anything to do with changing deuterium levels.

I had HBOT treatment in Auckland ages ago and didn’t notice any benefits. I no longer live in Auckland and I wouldn’t travel to do it.

As I’m always cold CT isn’t on the agenda

I have been trying to learn Buteyko breathing. I’d like to do a course but right now it’s not practical for me to travel to learn in person. I need to get back to doing the exercises daily.
 

tango

Senior Member
Messages
165
Location
New Zealand
Has anyone here lowered their deuterium levels and noticed health improvements from doing it?

DDW is crazy expensive to buy and having looked at the process for making it in the freezer I simply don’t have the energy to do that every day. I am thinking of trying reverse osmosis water and adding my salt and concentrace minerals to it.