Detailed blood work (high cytokines), need help interpreting

[gbells]

Can anything be done about this?

Is the best way to improve /preserve ATP to supplement curcumin?

Please re-read the prior post. There is nothing commercially available for apoptosis that has has enough effectiveness (Chia's equilibrant works for 25% with coxsackievirus). I haven't heard from people who tried nicotinamide riboside and d-ribose together to boost energy. Curcumin temporarily relieves the inflammation but not the energy deficit. The supplement D-ribose can boost ATP production from glycolysis and improve fatigue. Dr. Tietelbaum who sells d-ribose published research claiming that it boosts energy by 45% through increased non-Krebs cycle ATP production which matches patient reviews of the supplement. Nicotinamide riboside boosts NAD. So those are two supplements and the curcumin are worth trying. I use nicotinamide riboside mainly because I'm age 50 and it decreases with age. That one gave me about a 30% energy boost. So theoretically one may be able to recover about 50%-75% of energy as a work around using the two supplements together. I'd be curious to hear from people who tried both.

That said, I still favor the apoptosis approach because the virally infected cells predispose to early death through cancer from immortalized cells and suicide (depression from HHV6 SITH1 protein). So that means a low carcinogen lifestyle and an antidepressant regimen. It would be best to get rid of them and eliminate the source of the problem if possible.

Also, given that one is carrying chronic viruses it makes sense to avoid body fluid contact with others (blood, saliva, semen) to avoid getting anyone else sick.

If you try the d-ribose + nicotinamide ribose + curcumin (C3 curcumin is the most economical) please report back how much it improves energy. The cost isn't that bad if you buy in bulk.

Supplement vendors:

D-ribose

Nicotinamide Riboside

 

[Mrparadise]

@Markus83 I will do that in some months (it was like 750 Euros and my insurance isn't covering that). But for now I want to assume that the testing was accurate.

@Ronagrenade2020 It's a German lab called "Lab 4 more".

@gbells Many thanks for your detailed answer - highly appreciated! Regarding ATP, they did measure that (it should be visible in the photos I have added). The outcome was basically that my ATP is not negatively affected (at least that is what my doctor told me). Nevertheless, your postings make sense to me but beside these supplements there is nothing what I could do right now with these results (if I did understand you correctly)?

 

[Markus83]

@Markus83 I will do that in some months (it was like 750 Euros and my insurance isn't covering that). But for now I want to assume that the testing was accurate.

You could just retest IL8, which costs around 28 € at IMD: https://www.imd-berlin.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Anforderungsscheine/SI_Anforderung_IGEL.pdf

The blood (serum) needs to be centrifugated after blood drawing. If that was not the case before, IL8 is much too high. Blood has to be in the lab within 24 hours. I bet that your IL8 is not that high, a friend of mine had the same issue and everything was normal when he checked it with direct blood drawing at his local lab.

 

[gbells]

Nevertheless, your postings make sense to me but beside these supplements there is nothing what I could do right now with these results (if I did understand you correctly)?

You're welcome. Another supplement/food, glycyrrhizic acid from real licorice, inhibits coxsackievirus spread so it may slow progression. However you can't overdo it (6 pieces of real black licorice per day) or you can have potassium depletion (which causes fatigue) and other serious side effects. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3498851/

An alternative MD could prescribe viral replication inhibitors (ie. valgancyclovir) to slow the spread but they probably would just slow progression and not boost energy (Montoya research) which is why they aren't allowed for mainstream use on label. I think the supplements are your best chance of increasing energy and limiting inflammatory pain right now. Also be sure to learn spoons energy management and limit nerve irritants (excess noise, light) so not to overtax yourself which can harm you.

 

[Mrparadise]

@Markus83 You could be right but I know that they had a courier who was there on time especially for that. I will definitely keep in mind that the results could be wrong but I would also like to know what to expect and what to do if these resualts are accurate.

@gbells But in this case you assume that coxsackievirus would be one of the main contributers to my CFS but I tested for coxsackievirus and not even IGG were positive for that virus so I guess for me this could not be an issue. I know though that you would have to check for viruses with a really specific method (for people with CFS) and the method they used for my testing was not the "right one" according to some CFS-virus-specialists. But as there are many theories about CFS I would right now just want to know what to do, assuming that my cytokine levels are really that high. To be precise: What could these values indicate? What should I further test? Could there be any local infection that I should search for?

 

[Markus83]

@Markus83but I would also like to know what to expect and what to do if these resualts are accurate.

Look for autoimmunity and chronic infections.

I assume that you are from Germany: For autoimmunity send blood via your doctor to Immunpathologie/Uni Tübingen/ Prof. Klein together with your symptoms. They know what to test based on your symptoms. You don't have to pay for it, it is covered by insurance.

For chronic infections: This is much harder. First you should know which infections you want to test. Your IgG for EBV and HHV6 looks normal, so I would look for other infections. For example borrelia, bartonella, babesia, chlamydia, CMV, Parvo B19, Coxsackie, ECHO. Depends on your symptoms and history.

 

[Mrparadise]

@Markus83 Many thanks for the informative post! I am actually from Switzerland but my doctor is located at the German border. I checked for alost every virus which is associated with ME/CFS. But I never did any further testings regarding autoimmunity. Maybe I need to do that...

 

[gbells]

@gbells But in this case you assume that coxsackievirus would be one of the main contributers to my CFS but I tested for coxsackievirus and not even IGG were positive for that virus so I guess for me this could not be an issue. I know though that you would have to check for viruses with a really specific method (for people with CFS) and the method they used for my testing was not the "right one" according to some CFS-virus-specialists. But as there are many theories about CFS I would right now just want to know what to do, assuming that my cytokine levels are really that high. To be precise: What could these values indicate? What should I further test? Could there be any local infection that I should search for?

Glycyrrhizic acid also inhibits EBV and several other viruses (AIDS, Sars, Hepatitis B). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31125383/

Cytokines mean that your immune system is being stimulated by a foreign invader. Viruses trigger them.

"A hallmark of a viral infection is an acute reaction by the infected cell. This includes activation of a preexisting antiviral defense machinery, commitment to apoptosis, and production of specific cytokines. "
(Mogensen TH, Paludan SR. Molecular pathways in virus-induced cytokine production. Microbiol Mol Biol Rev. 2001;65(1):131-150. doi:10.1128/MMBR.65.1.131-150.2001)

 

[Mrparadise]

@gbells So you would suggest to try out glycyrrhizic acid ?

 

[gbells]

@gbells So you would suggest to try out glycyrrhizic acid ?

Sure but respect the maximum amount and make sure you are getting enough potassium (banannas, potassium chloride light salt). I use it for that purpose against EBV and coxsackievirus. It makes sense to try to minimize the virus spread to prevent more severe ME symptoms.

 

[gbells]

Can anything be done about this?

Is the best way to improve /preserve ATP to supplement curcumin?

As discussed previously you can boost ATP with D-ribose and NAD with nicotinamide riboside (adults). Licorice can slow the spread of EBV and coxsackievirus.

There are no available treatments yet to eradicte the viruses except perhaps lone coxsackievirus infections (oxymatrine). I am working on an immunotherapy regimen to stimulate apoptosis and another group is working on VTose/DRACO that they hope will do the same.

 

[gbells]

Can anything be done about this?

Is the best way to improve /preserve ATP to supplement curcumin?

The two approaches for the combined viruses being developed are immunotherapy (mine) and DRACO/VTose. I don't think DRACO will work unless they change to a different molecule (caspase 7) and it is in early development with the wrong caspase (which I warned them about but they are stubborn). Development of my system is coming along well. Can't wait to get it out there and start more collecting patient data.

It would come along faster if we had support from Open Medicine Foundation but they aren't helpful (they demand you give up ownership and only work with universities). So I'm stuck going it alone. I'm still ME activity level 5 so I can only go so fast. Also, I've been testing supplements as I go so I didn't want to release it until I was satisfied with the effectiveness. My MDs are signing off on the supplement costs and love the picture improvements with toe periostititis so it's coming along.

Circumin works by undoing the Nf-kb inflammation caused by EBV and HHV6.

The best things I've found to boost energy are D-ribose and Nicotinamide riboside. I've found it boosts it about 50% from my ME baseline (which is doing active immunotherapy). This is confirmed by Tietelbaum's research. It doesn't fix the mitochondria. It works by enhancing other ATP production. It's no panacea but it was clever of him to figure it out as a palliative treatment.

 

[Ronagrenade2020]

Would something like Thymolin a1 and interferon work? My T cells all came back below range nd I have vca igm positive for EBV.

I am thinking of circumventing the t cell exhaustion or powering the T cell production with ta1.

I have also read positive things on ARVs or possibly valciclovir to reduce virus.

I haven't had a chance to test many other viruses yet but it's clear something is surpressimg my immune system