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Detailed blood work (high cytokines), need help interpreting

Mrparadise

Senior Member
Messages
119
I have just gotten my results from the detailed blood work I did and I wanted to ask for your help regarding interpretation.

I am not sure how often CFS-sufferers see such values and therefore I wanted to check if such high levels of IL-6, IL-8, TNF alpha and Interferon gamma are "normal" for CFS or if that may indicates something else.

Also I would like to know if I should see some other doctors to search an inflammation somewhere (like the jawbone infection, the nasopharyngitis, etc.). What would you guys say that these results mean? Is any medication indicated with higher levels of cytokines? Do I have to search for cancer?

I am pretty alarmed right now. My doctor does not tell me too much and says that leaky gut and gut dysbiosis could be the cause but to be honest I dont think that these high values could come from that.

Many thanks in advance for your support!
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Markus83

Senior Member
Messages
277
I find it likely that there is a problem with the pre-analytics, especially with the IL8. I would retest these cytokines in another lab like IMD Berlin. You need your serum blood collected and centrifugated by your local doctor and the blood has to be in the lab within 24 hours, otherwise you won't get valid results.
 

Mrparadise

Senior Member
Messages
119
@Markus83 Thanks for your quick response - highly appreciated. The doctor I am going to had a courier especially for that so I guess that they knew what they do. CRP was not measured at the same time but 5 months ago it has been pretty low with 0.4. Is there any good reasoning for these values? Or is either the test wrong or I have something that reactivates itself from time to time and the CRP would be high as well if measured right now? Is there for sure a direct influence bewteen IL-6 and CRP (not possible that one can be high and one low at all)?

Many thanks again!
 

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
As you can see, you appear to have a large number of B cells and inflammatory cytokines.

And a slightly low level of CD8 suppressor T cells.

These are all consistent with immune activation, such as due to an infection, autoimmunity, or possibly cancer. But I believe it is unusual for an ME patient to have such clear signs of immune activation.

Maybe it was just a temporary infection you had on the day you had your blood tests. You can redo these tests in a month or two to see if the results are the same...

Hope this helps.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I believe it is unusual for an ME patient to have such clear signs of immune activation.
This is not true. Patients have all sorts of combinations of cytokines and various levels of immune activation. Jarred younger found that there was a subset with infections and another subset of patients with autoimmunity and a third subset that had both (he told me this directly - he'd presented the first two that were on his paper, and as I seem to have both I asked him, and he said absolutely there was a subset of us that had both infections and autoimmunity.)
 

Mrparadise

Senior Member
Messages
119
@Pyrrhus Many thanks for your reply! Actually that is what I have found on the Internet after some research. I am a bit worried because if it could be cancer then I probably have to act quickly... Somewhere I've read that high IL-8 could also be an indicator for a local infection and I am trying to find any.

@Learner1 Does that mean that you have similar values of cytokines? Do these values indicate any further research or the use of any medication?

I am really worried about these results and don't know what to do next... Either I try to find a local infection or I search for cancer with specialists or I try some medication to lower these inflammatory cytokines (if there even are such kind of medications?).

If you have any suggestions to me, I would be really really glad if you could tell them to me. My doctor thinks that the cause may be a leaky gut but I think that I should rule out the "hard factors" first to be safe (checking for cancer and autoimmune diseases).
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,499
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
Given that you have EBV and HHV6 high antibodies it looks like a typical ME dual infection which would raise cytokines. The low MCH and low eryrocytes suggest iron deficiency. Do you have any depression? That's a HHV6 effect. I'm curious if you have any EBV symptoms like enlarged lymph nodes, gagging from throat inflammation, chronic sore throat.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319457
http://www.dr-walraph.de/info208.htm
 

Mrparadise

Senior Member
Messages
119
@gbells Thanks for your post! Are my EBV and HHV6 IGG-antibodies really that high? Last time when I did general blood work (3 months ago) my iron level was normal so I don't think that I am deficient in iron. Furthermore, I do not notice enlarged lymph nodes (at least they are not visible for me). I would say that I am a little bit depressed because I cannot live a normal life anymore which is depressing on its own. But depression is for sure not the main cause (it would not make sense to me to have PEM-symptoms if my only problem would be depression).
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,499
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
@gbells Thanks for your post! Are my EBV and HHV6 IGG-antibodies really that high? Last time when I did general blood work (3 months ago) my iron level was normal so I don't think that I am deficient in iron. Furthermore, I do not notice enlarged lymph nodes (at least they are not visible for me). I would say that I am a little bit depressed because I cannot live a normal life anymore which is depressing on its own. But depression is for sure not the main cause (it would not make sense to me to have PEM-symptoms if my only problem would be depression).

They flagged as abnormal in the red so yes they are high and indicate chronic infection. Very common for ME.

Depression comes with HHV6. I wouldn't assume it is just your circumstances.

Enlarged lymph nodes should be palpated. They won't be visible. They are over the sternocleidomastoid muscles, under the jaw and in the armpits. They would feel enlarged and tender.

Your doctor should be diagnosing and treating the reason for the anemia. At least you can get that under control.
 

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
This is not true. Patients have all sorts of combinations of cytokines and various levels of immune activation. Jarred younger found that there was a subset with infections and another subset of patients with autoimmunity and a third subset that had both (he told me this directly - he'd presented the first two that were on his paper, and as I seem to have both I asked him, and he said absolutely there was a subset of us that had both infections and autoimmunity.)

You're talking about research studies, but the poster was asking about the standard basic lab tests that doctors routinely order. In ME, the standard basic lab tests that doctors typically order tend to show nothing out of the ordinary. This has been the experience of many many ME patients.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Actually, this true for real patients..

I really want to kow what lab tests these doctors are running that can't find anything. Even my CBC runs all over the map and on the CMP. I see kidney and liver numbers off. Bun , anion gap.etc. All the labs I've seen in various patients have at least 2-3 abnormalities. And there are overlaps between patients'.
 

Mrparadise

Senior Member
Messages
119
@gbells where exactly can you see the anemia according to this lab? Because you wrote in your previous post that the eryrocytes are low but I guess they are even a bit higher as they should be or am I wrong here?

@Markus83 Yeah, I thought that as well

@Learner1 & @Pyrrhus Would you say that my results are typical for ME/CFS or could they indicate something else? What would you do if you were me according to these results? Is there anything I should definitely check for? What do these values say in general? Is there any medication I could try to lower these value and would that possibly have a beneficial effect on my ME/CFS?
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,499
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
@gbells where exactly can you see the anemia according to this lab? Because you wrote in your previous post that the eryrocytes are low but I guess they are even a bit higher as they should be or am I wrong here?

@Markus83 Yeah, I thought that as well

@Learner1 & @Pyrrhus Would you say that my results are typical for ME/CFS or could they indicate something else? What would you do if you were me according to these results? Is there anything I should definitely check for? What do these values say in general? Is there any medication I could try to lower these value and would that possibly have a beneficial effect on my ME/CFS?

I messed that response up, probably because it's in german which is a language I don't speak. You are right that the erythocyctes are high, however, the low MCH still suggests iron deficiency according to this article. https://www.healthline.com/health/mch#treatment

Here's a discussion of high erythrocytes:

You have erythrocytosis if your RBC count is higher than normal. This may be due to:

When you move to a higher altitude, your RBC count may increase for several weeks because there’s less oxygen in the air.

Certain drugs like gentamicin and methyldopa can increase your RBC count. Gentamicin is an antibiotic used to treat bacterial infections in the blood.

Methyldopa is often used to treat high blood pressure. It works by relaxing the blood vessels to allow blood to flow more easily through the body. Be sure to tell your doctor about any medications you take.

A high RBC count may be a result of sleep apnea, pulmonary fibrosis, and other conditions that cause low oxygen levels in the blood.

Performance-enhancing drugs like protein injections and anabolic steroids can also increase RBCs. Kidney disease and kidney cancers can lead to high RBC counts as well.
https://www.healthline.com/health/rbc-count#high-count
 

Mrparadise

Senior Member
Messages
119
@gbells Many thanks for clarifying! I will discuss that with my doctor but as the erytrocytes are only a little bit higher I am way more concerned about the extremely high levels of IL-6 and especially IL-8 (as well as TNF alpha and interferon gamma). But thanks a lot for the postings, I will definitely have a look at them!
 
Messages
66
Where did you get these labs done?

Surely there must be something they can do to reduce cytokines? Aren't they responsible for making you feel awful when you have an infection ?
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,499
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
I am way more concerned about the extremely high levels of IL-6 and especially IL-8 (as well as TNF alpha and interferon gamma). But thanks a lot for the postings, I will definitely have a look at them!

You're welcome. The ME combined virus subtype is essentially an aborted anti-virus apoptosis response where the cell stays in a painful, inflammed state due to a virally upregulated Nf-kb checkpoint which inhibits mitochondria (no Kreb's cycle aka citric acid cycle) and causes it to lose most of its energy production capability (90% reduced ATP and NAD). For CMV, EBV, HHV6 and coxsackievirus there can be blocks at up to 10 different apotosis steps and checkpoints which makes it very hard to kill and gives it an enhanced ability to penetrate tissues. When enough cells are infected this explains the typical pain, fatigue and immunosuppression we see with viral ME. Curcumin palliates the inflammation but not the energy deficit. The only ways to resolve it would be to restore kill off the cell through apoptosis or use some future version of prime gene editing to cut the viral genes out of the cell's nuclear DNA. Two candidates are my own supplement cycling approach (see my Self-Experimentation Blog) or perhaps a modified DRACO-VTose with either caspase-7 or pro-caspase 7 (which would be a future variation they haven't developed yet). The current VTose probably won't work because it it inhibited at caspase-3 (which I told them). I think researchers need to come up with vaccines for these viruses and try to block them with preventative code inserts to prevent later viral re-infections of the DNA but this will take a lot of research to develop and is years away. My treatment is going well (improvements with depression, fatigue, periostitis and reduced systemic lupus erythematosis cytokines) and I'm hoping to set up a trial and get some products out there in the near future.
 
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Messages
66
You're welcome. The ME combined virus subtype is essentially an aborted anti-virus apoptosis response where the cell stays in a painful, inflammed state due to virally upregulated Nf-kb which inhibits mitochondria (no Kreb's cycle aka citric acid cycle) and causes it to lose most of its energy production capability (90% reduced ATP and NAD). When enough cells are infected this explains the typical pain and fatigue we see with viral ME. Curcumin palliates the inflammation but the only way to resolve it is to restore apoptosis and kill off the cell or, perhaps in the future, prime gene edit the viruses out of the cell and immunize with gene blocker DNA (and/or vaccines) to prevent more viral contamination of the DNA.
Can anything be done about this?

Is the best way to improve /preserve ATP to supplement curcumin?