Depression Poll

[MeSci]

I downloaded a copy of DSM5 the other day and skimmed over it. It really needs to be scrapped.

The brain/body illnesses that create horrendous suffering and destroy lives need a new definition. @Hip I do respect your knowledge base on mental illness, having just read your latest posts here, but the defining of "disorders" has gone waaaaay too far when it makes normal human behavior into pathology.

Stigma? I have a story or two for those who think we should not be concerned about this. You cannot ignore stigmata when you live with people or develop close relationships.

Tell a new boyfriend you have a history of depression, in the past, resolved - and watch your IQ seemingly drop 80 points when they start infantilizing.

I grew up in a closed society where mental illness was considered shameful and a character weakness, and I guess your family member is supposed to be hidden away in a back bedroom and ignored. I did not have depression - yet. I was withdrawn emotionally because of mental and emotional abuse. I think that was the trigger, a bad and unending situation that then kicked off biology. My mother took it to the extreme, choosing to ignore me and withhold love to "toughen me up." I grew up isolated and alienated in a houseful of people, and to this day I am scapegoated for everything wrong in the family. Years of counseling have shown me the dysfunctional patterns of rigidity similar to alcoholic family systems (any excess), and on learning the many faces of mental abuse, I began to heal emotionally. Scapegoating was a huge issue, and it was a relief to understand it. My mother would gaslight and mock me. It was awful. I finally have had to stay away from family members completely. They hear everything I say with a skeptical filter, judging my credibility because obviously I am "not all there." Ha, ha. Saying these illnesses are permanent and lifelong sells drugs. I think they can be healed.

Although I have emphasized the difference between organic physical illness and situational events, of course the two become intertwined. I do not know if "biological permission" would have allowed depression to develop if I had grown up in a loving environment. I will never know.

I also know that once I had a course of antibiotics at age 11 for bronchitis, my life changed forever. In retrospect, what many call "CFS-lite" showed up in my teen years. Insomnia began at age 12. Energy was always low, whether because of depression, sleep deprivation, or the beginnings of a neuro immune disorder. I would guess all three.

The shocker here for me is that I am openly talking about it. I am in my 50s, and finally feel safe enough to discuss it. That is pathetic by itself.

I like the yes/no format of the poll because of the discussion it sparked.

I think the stigma is hard to accept and/or ignore because it is as damaging as any other prejudice.

Your story could almost be my own, @GracieJ. It was very well described and rationalised. Thank you.

 

[MeSci]

The UK Guardian newspaper had this article on depression and inflammation. It's not very well written I think but a few interesting nuggets

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...tion-inflammation-immune-system?commentpage=1

"As evidence like this continues to stack up, it’s not surprising that some people have shifted their attention to what might be causing the inflammation in the first place. Turhan Canli of Stony Brook University in New York thinks infections are the most likely culprit, and even goes as far as to say that we should rebrand depression as an infectious – but not contagious – disease."

I've found a few earlier papers on the relationships between inflammation, depression and also ME/CFS. Some (all?) have been discussed on PR. You will find them if you do a title search.

 

[MeSci]

The thing is though, it is a pay off. Both my parents lived well into their eighties, in fact my father died three months before his 90th birthday - probably would have lived longer without the smoking and the fried breakfasts Your autoimmunity will kill off cancerous cells with the same ferocity as it kills off a thyroid gland. It is like a superannuated policing system. I'm not saying it is a good thing, or a bad thing, but some people believe it is a stage of evolution where the human body has perceived external dangers to be greater than internal ones, and preferred the protection of the individual organism from external toxins or tumours, to the reproductive imperative.

Autoimmunity may well preserve the individual for a lot longer than impaired immunity.

The same thought has occurred to me, but some studies have found an apparently high rate of some cancers in ME patients, and some have reported a shorter lifespan, although I can't remember what the (theorised?) cause/causes was/were of this.

 

[Anabel]

Why on earth is PR asking people to vote about whether or not they're depressed? It's no wonder that so many people with M.E. (M.E., not the wastebasket diagnosis of CFS - one which includes so many people who do not have the physical disease, M.E., as defined by the WHO or the CCC or, even better, the ICC) avoid this forum, completely.

We're trying very hard to get biomedical research done on the physical disease, M.E., and all that this post and thread (not everyone) is doing is muddying the waters, which might be the purpose. Psychs would love this thread. Throw in the recent Wesselyian - 'people with depression have neuro and immune disorders' - and you're feeding them exactly what they want to hear. Their ilk are neither immunologists nor neurologists, nor real scientists, but they're throwing that one around for a very good reason (their good reason, that is). If you can't figure out why, then, you're lacking in your knowledge of the history of M.E., the disease which was re-defined by psychiatrists who had no business being involved with M.E., in the first place.

In case you hadn't noticed, depression and M.E. were separated, decades ago, by real scientists, ones who were ignored or dismissed by the CDC. Of course, people with any disease, including M.E., feel a sense of sadness, once in a while, but that's not depression. If you are incapable of using words correctly, don't use them. Whoever said that "People are frightened to say here by this poll that they are depressed. Why? You are. There's no shame in that.". - guess again. What gives you the right to say that, in the first place? People know whether or not they're depressed. I've had M.E. for 30 years, I'm alone, I have Severe M.E. and I'm not depressed. I'm not thrilled to have M.E, of course, and, sometimes, I feel sad about it or envious of healthies but that is NOT depression or being depressed. Far from it, and both the sadness and envy disappear within a day or two. That's no different than people with any other chronic disease - or cancer, or old age, for that matter.

Between your re-writing of threads (you've learned well from your former admin), your removal of derogatory statements made by your pet, Charles Shepherd (of the MEA) to patients, and your hanging on every word that Jonathan Edwards writes, you have shown yourselves not to be advocates for people with M.E. and PWME should know that you're not, but they get fooled. This latest post is so ridiculous that I hope that the people with M.E. will leave a forum which is, clearly, not an advocacy group for PWME.

PR is a laughing-stock among people with M.E. That is not a compliment.

 

[MeSci]

Do you have any particular conditions in mind which you consider normal human behavior, but which psychiatrists have classified as a mental health disorders? ADHD is the example people often give of psychiatrists going too far.

I can think of a couple that were dreamed up but may not all have got into the DSM:

Grief as an illness.
Orthorexia (an 'obsession' with healthy eating!!).

I also have my doubts about social anxiety. I think that the line between this claimed disorder and being a bit shy is very blurred, if there can really be said to be a line at all.

I also wonder about Asperger's syndrome, but I think that this is becoming accepted as a personality type rather than a mental illness now. I am borderline Aspie by online tests, and it helps to explain and clarify some things, but I think it should be treated as just part of human variability, as well as being better understood. I reckon I can identify Aspies quite often now, and knowing what they are helps me to understand, and sometimes make allowances for, them.

What worries me is when psychs treat personality types or quirks as illnesses. If someone feels that something is adversely affecting them, yes - they may need some help. Otherwise just respect their differences and let them be!

 

[Valentijn]

Why on earth is PR asking people to vote about whether or not they're depressed?

Hi! I started the poll. I'm @Valentijn, not Phoenix Rising.

Psychs would love this thread. Throw in the recent Wesselyian - 'people with depression have neuro and immune disorders' - and you're feeding them exactly what they want to hear.

I can't say that the opinions of a small group of psychobabblers is my primary consideration for engaging in a conversation about a topic. I have quite a few thoughts regarding their theories about depression, which I also strongly disagree with. But not everyone does, for various reasons, and I think it's been pretty educational for myself and others to discuss the topic.

I'm not thrilled to have M.E, of course, and, sometimes, I feel sad about it or envious of healthies but that is NOT depression or being depressed. Far from it, and both the sadness and envy disappear within a day or two. That's no different than people with any other chronic disease - or cancer, or old age, for that matter.

Yup, I agree. But others don't, and others haven't thought much about the difference between temporary normal reactions to a situation, versus clinical depression. But maybe now they are thinking about those things a bit more - and they wouldn't be doing that if we weren't having this conversation.

Between your re-writing of threads (you've learned well from your former admin), your removal of derogatory statements made by your pet, Charles Shepherd (of the MEA) to patients, and your hanging on every word that Jonathan Edwards writes, you have shown yourselves not to be advocates for people with M.E. and PWME should know that you're not, but they get fooled.

I guess you're addressing the moderators and administrators, and not the author of the poll? Though the thought of @charles shepherd as my pet, or hanging on the words of @Jonathan Edwards (whom I at times argue with at length) is amusing. And very disturbing

I can't respond for the forum administration, but as a former moderator and someone who tends to keep a close eye on things in general, at most moderators will redact parts of posts which violate forum rules. I find those rules to be quite reasonable, and enforced in a much nicer and more thoughtful manner than I've seen elsewhere.

This latest post is so ridiculous that I hope that the people with M.E. will leave a forum which is, clearly, not an advocacy group for PWME.

Should we be silent regarding difficult issues? Should we not attempt to understand other viewpoints on any subject for which there is disagreement? Honestly, I cannot fathom what you are upset about, aside that some forum members have posted opinions with which you disagree. Should the moderators silence voices who oppose some (imaginary) official ME/CFS patient and advocate party line? The proposition sounds a bit authoritarian really.

PR is a laughing-stock among people with M.E. That is not a compliment.

Which people with ME, specifically, aside from yourself?

 

[luludji]

BPS should be looking at all three factors, as you did, and assisting people struggling with them. But the psychobabblers have twisted the entire concept, attributing all physical problems to psychological origins.
...
Hence psychologists and psychiatrists generally pose a serious risk to every patient in the UK and the Netherlands, and we have to avoid the entire profession as a matter of course. This leads to a lot of distrust and distaste for the profession in general, and some of it is warranted - why do these therapists not think critically about what they are told by an authority figure? Why do they not listen to patients and attempt to verify the truth of what the patient is telling them before dismissing it?

Thanks Valentijn, this is the kind of respons I would have like to give if I was capable to.
Indeed psychiatry has wronged us in a serious way, and is stil doing so.... but maybe the situation in the US is better in that aspect?
I do think that most people working in this field do this with full integrity, but the misconceps can be very harmfull and dangerous for people with ME.

 

[Valentijn]

Indeed psychiatry has wronged us in a serious way, and is stil doing so.... but maybe the situation in the US is better in that aspect?

Yes ... currently only insurance companies are interested in having diseases be psychologized is the US. In the Netherlands and the UK, the government ends up paying most of the associated costs of long-term disability, so they have an interest in funding research into psychosomatic theories.

And whereas research funded by an insurance agency is going to be treated VERY skeptically, research funded by government agencies doesn't get the same level of scrutiny. So while insurance companies can be a driving force behind turning ME into a psychological disorder, they need the cooperation of the government for serious damage to be done.

In some countries there's pretty much a full-blown war being waged against certain illnesses, whereas in the US it's much more a matter of neglect and disinterest. But this might start to change, now that the right to health care is more-or-less a matter of law the US for the first time. It might just be coincidence, but it's one reason that the timing of the current P2P and IOM contracts makes me very uneasy.

The recent fiasco by the NIH for Gulf War Syndrome is a good example: the government was already much more on the line (financially and reputationally) when it comes to caring for veterans, so there was already a powerful incentive to downplay the disease as much as possible. I'm afraid that they have even more of that incentive for diseases like ME/CFS now.

 

[MeSci]

One could have no doctor access, but keep going mentally because they have family member (e.g. mother or husband) who sticks by them for life. Perhaps I was a little naive not to remember this as an 'ME Phenomena'. (The people I just thought of who seem remarkably cheerful, they almost always have a parent who has sacrificed everything for them)

I really feel for the people, who literally, have no one at all in their lives to support them mentally. . I expect these are the folk who commit suicide as they have nothing to live for and lose all hope. Talking is certainly an incredible thing and a way to get through each day if you have someone by your side despite enduring awful unrelenting symptoms.

I think that having emotional support in childhood can set you up for life to be confident and happy. But my childhood was similar to that of @GracieJ. I think that in my case I had to learn to be emotionally self-sufficient, but with an absence of love from an early age it was very hard to form relationships with others, not helped - I now realise - by being borderline Asperger's. In a way I have been more content since giving up 'romantic' or sexual relationships, having gained enough confidence to just be myself and not have to justify myself by having a relationship.

I am 'alone' most of the time, but would not be without my cats, who make a huge difference. When I meet people I am cheerful and chatty - I chat to shop assistants, etc. Friends visit occasionally.

I don't feel lonely, especially with Phoenix Rising. It would sometimes be nice to have someone to go out with, but I do occasionally, e.g. a local vegan group's get-togethers (a member will usually be able to give me a lift).

When I retire in 2016 I am thinking of joining more local groups if I can find some in my areas of interest. Until then I am really too busy trying to keep the wolf from the door, etc.

 

[Hip]

Anyone who's been incarcerated in a psychiatric ward with ME CFS will tell you this, where psychiatrists can legally starve ME CFS patients and won't even give them fluid (water) unless they 'walk' for food like an obedient dog. This still happens in UK and Europe and presumably other parts of the world

I doubt this very much, but if you have any evidence of this happening, please provide the details, as the press should be alerted to investigate an issue like that.

In case you hadn't noticed, depression and M.E. were separated, decades ago,

And in case you hadn't noticed, this thread is not about conflating depression and ME/CFS, but rather determining what percentage of ME/CFS patients have depression alongside their ME/CFS, as a comorbid condtion. Are you aware that there are lots of comorbid diseases, both physical and mental, that ME/CFS patients may have?

I also have my doubts about social anxiety. I think that the line between this claimed disorder and being a bit shy is very blurred, if there can really be said to be a line at all.

Social anxiety is often erroneously described as "shyness", but in fact social anxiety has very little to do with being shy. Social anxiety involves intense worry and anxiety over how other people may perceive, evaluate or judge you, or what you say.

I started to get social anxiety symptoms completely out of the blue, around 2 or 3 years ago. I had had severe generalized anxiety disorder for many years before that, but without any hint of social anxiety; but then all of a sudden, social anxiety hit me.

The first thing I noticed was when I came home from socializing with friends, my mind would start going over all the things I had said in conversation, and I started to worry intensely if certain things I had said would be hurtful to my friends, or would portray me in a bad light, or would be misinterpreted in a negative way by my friends. I would worry intensely, yet irrationally, that my statements and conversation might have somehow come across badly, so that my friends would evaluate or judge me badly.

These fears and worries are totally unfounded, because I get on well with friends, and am not the type to make any statements that might be hurtful to people. I am pretty tactful and respectful normally. Yet I would find myself worrying for days after each social event, about how I was coming over to my friends.

And note that I certainly have no shyness whatsoever. In all social situations, I find myself confident, and can very easily dominate the conversation if I choose to. Yet all of a sudden, I found that after the socializing was over, I'd start to fret and worry about what I'd said, and how I would be perceived by my friends.

This article details the differences between shyness (which is just a normal personality trait), and social anxiety (which is a pathological mental state). To quote some of the article:

A key difference between the two definitions is that social anxiety disorder is not considered a “normal” facet of personality, or a personality characteristic, whereas shyness is.

In fact, people who are shy may view this condition as a positive quality, whereas a person with social anxiety disorder would not describe their condition positively.

People with social anxiety experience fear, anxiety, stress, embarrassment, and humiliation on a daily basis. The amount of anxiety experienced is enough to inflict great emotional pain.

A common treatment for social anxiety is choline bitartrate, and I found that taking 1000 mg of this daily completely eradicates my social anxiety, and all its symptoms. So this has been a very successful treatment for my social anxiety.

 

[Undisclosed]

Why on earth is PR asking people to vote about whether or not they're depressed? It's no wonder that so many people with M.E. (M.E., not the wastebasket diagnosis of CFS - one which includes so many people who do not have the physical disease, M.E., as defined by the WHO or the CCC or, even better, the ICC) avoid this forum, completely.

As @Valentijn has already pointed out Phoenix Rising is not asking members to vote on anything. Members are free to post polls and if you actually bothered to read the thread you would see the reason for and context of the question.

Anabel said: We're trying very hard to get biomedical research done on the physical disease, M.E., and all that this post and thread (not everyone) is doing is muddying the waters, which might be the purpose. Psychs would love this thread. Throw in the recent Wesselyian - 'people with depression have neuro and immune disorders' - and you're feeding them exactly what they want to hear. Their ilk are neither immunologists nor neurologists, nor real scientists, but they're throwing that one around for a very good reason (their good reason, that is). If you can't figure out why, then, you're lacking in your knowledge of the history of M.E., the disease which was re-defined by psychiatrists who had no business being involved with M.E., in the first place.

Rather than accusing members here of muddying the waters, perhaps you should actually read the thread and then you will perhaps see that as @Hip previously stated:

Hip said ... this thread is not about conflating depression and ME/CFS, but rather determining what percentage of ME/CFS patients have depression alongside their ME/CFS, as a comorbid condtion. Are you aware that there are lots of comorbid diseases, both physical and mental, that ME/CFS patients may have?

Anabel said: In case you hadn't noticed, depression and M.E. were separated, decades ago, by real scientists, ones who were ignored or dismissed by the CDC. Of course, people with any disease, including M.E., feel a sense of sadness, once in a while, but that's not depression. If you are incapable of using words correctly, don't use them. Whoever said that "People are frightened to say here by this poll that they are depressed. Why? You are. There's no shame in that.". - guess again. What gives you the right to say that, in the first place? People know whether or not they're depressed. I've had M.E. for 30 years, I'm alone, I have Severe M.E. and I'm not depressed. I'm not thrilled to have M.E, of course, and, sometimes, I feel sad about it or envious of healthies but that is NOT depression or being depressed. Far from it, and both the sadness and envy disappear within a day or two. That's no different than people with any other chronic disease - or cancer, or old age, for that matter.

I am not sure if I am reading your comments as they are meant here but people 'with any disease, including ME' certainly can and do feel more than a certain sense of 'sadness once in a while'. I have worked with many people with many different chronic and acute diseases and clinical depression certainly can be a co-morbid disorder related to any form of illness. People handle being ill in many different ways, why on earth are denying the experiences of people with ME who have co-morbid depression or any other psychiatric disorder. Do you know how many people with ME have committed suicide? -- MANY and do you think they were just suffering from a day or two of sadness and envy?

Between your re-writing of threads (you've learned well from your former admin), your removal of derogatory statements made by your pet, Charles Shepherd (of the MEA) to patients, and your hanging on every word that Jonathan Edwards writes, you have shown yourselves not to be advocates for people with M.E. and PWME should know that you're not, but they get fooled. This latest post is so ridiculous that I hope that the people with M.E. will leave a forum which is, clearly, not an advocacy group for PWME.

Since I have been doing most of the moderation since November of 2011, I am going to address this ridiculous BS. First of all, moderators do not "re-write" threads, we edit out rule breaches like personal attacks, or remove spam, or edit for copyright. I have never spoken to our former admin about moderation, not once. If Charles Shepherd has made derogatory comments, then they would come under a personal attack and would be removed under the rules. Where did you get this 'pet' thing from, I don't know Charles Shepherd from Adam. Any person is allowed to join PR and it doesn't matter who they are. Your comments about J. Edwards make no sense and really who on earth are you addressing. I think members are fully capable of reading posts from any member and then capable of deciding on their own if the information is useful/worthwhile/etc etc. Does everybody on PR have to be 'advocates'? Members come here for many reasons including to sign up and then insult long term members and the admin. The members here that are advocates are excellent advocates.

PR is a laughing-stock among people with M.E. That is not a compliment.

That is a ridiculous comment because it simply isn't true.

Spoiler: PS:

If you don't like Phoenix Rising, then don't come to Phoenix Rising.

 

[chipmunk1]

Orthorexia (an 'obsession' with healthy eating!!)

This does really exist. It's rare but there have been cases were people would literally starve themselves to death because their diet became so restrictive and they felt almost any food was harmful to them.

The problem is because a few of such cases exist the disorder is considered to be legitimate.

Then anyone who has an obession with healthy eating in the eyes of a psychiatrist can be labeled as orthorexic.

But what is irrational and what is an obession is rather subjective.

 

[Butydoc]

Yes ... currently only insurance companies are interested in having diseases be psychologized is the US. In the Netherlands and the UK, the government ends up paying most of the associated costs of long-term disability, so they have an interest in funding research into psychosomatic theories.

And whereas research funded by an insurance agency is going to be treated VERY skeptically, research funded by government agencies doesn't get the same level of scrutiny. So while insurance companies can be a driving force behind turning ME into a psychological disorder, they need the cooperation of the government for serious damage to be done.

In some countries there's pretty much a full-blown war being waged against certain illnesses, whereas in the US it's much more a matter of neglect and disinterest. But this might start to change, now that the right to health care is more-or-less a matter of law the US for the first time. It might just be coincidence, but it's one reason that the timing of the current P2P and IOM contracts makes me very uneasy.

The recent fiasco by the NIH for Gulf War Syndrome is a good example: the government was already much more on the line (financially and reputationally) when it comes to caring for veterans, so there was already a powerful incentive to downplay the disease as much as possible. I'm afraid that they have even more of that incentive for diseases like ME/CFS now.

Hi Valentijn,

Last March I attended the Stanford conference on CFS/ME and experienced something that was very interesting. I was sitting next to a Psychiatrist who also was attending the meeting. He claimed he had a number of CFS/ME patients and wanted to learn more about this disease. About 2/3 through the conference, he began to cry. I asked him if he was ok. His response was guilt for treating his group of patients with CFS/ME for depression and not realizing that they had a severe chronic disease and were suffering from non validation of their problem. He learned during his continuing education in psychiatry that "chronic fatigue syndrome" was a psychiatric disease, only to later learn from attending the conference the horrible misjustice that has been perpetrated by his profession on these ill patients.

Best,
Gary

 

[luludji]

I doubt this very much, but if you have any evidence of this happening, please provide the details, as the press should be alerted to investigate an issue like that.

O yes, this ís happening.....
There are known cases in Denmark, Germany, of imprisonment in psychiatric wards of children with ME (the "starving" part I have heard of, indeed). The press will do nothing, too afraid to go against establishment.

He Gary, Nice story. (Do you happen to know of which country this psychiatrist came?)

 

[Sidereal]

His response was guilt for treating his group of patients with CFS/ME for depression and not realizing that they had a severe chronic disease

Interesting comments by the psychiatrist. Depression as you know can also be a severe chronic treatment-resistant disabling condition. At the very severe end of the spectrum, catatonia can in fact be fatal.

 

[MeSci]

This illness has drained me. I am still in the game, but it's been forever and for me there will never be acceptance. I can't. Another reason I can't accept it, is because it's ever changing. I have been diagnosed with 5 diseases this past year and I have been sick for over 26 years. It's too much and I would be in total denial to not be depressed. I will never be that kind of person who is indoors or super sick and "okay" with it and to be honest, I like that about myself because when I was well, I was the life of the party. I have too much life in me.

To have had that much soul or spirit, I will never truly be okay with these limitations and especially with what you said; without someone to share my life and help me to take my mind off of me.

I don't think that any of us is OK with this illness. Few people in the world are completely satisfied with their lot.

The reason I moved from other forums to Phoenix Rising was the 'can do' attitude I saw here - the determination of many people to find out the causes and cures for the illness. Far from just accepting our illness, we are trying to treat it ourselves in the absence of such treatment being offered by doctors.

There was a time that I accepted that I would never get better, then a research paper gave me a glimmer of hope and I was off! If there is hope of recovery, I will follow that hope as long as I have strength to do so. I will participate in the discussions about the science, which I enjoy (even though it can be mentally exhausting) and together we are making small steps, sometimes missteps, but we are piecing things together. So are some scientists, and a few are now working with us - a great step forward. And some of us are scientists, albeit prevented by the illness from working in the conventional research arena.

We will get there. Maybe not all the way there in my lifetime, but some of us getting at least part of the way there already - we have achieved improvements. I am sure that knowledge will continue to gather, and people on PR are contributing to this progress.

Having such goals can keep depression at bay.

But when I used to get down more often, I developed a maxim for measuring a successful day.

• Something learned
• Something achieved
• Something to look forward to

Even on a really bad PEM day, I can usually fulfil these.

 

[Hip]

There are known cases in Denmark, Germany, of imprisonment in psychiatric wards of children with ME (the "starving" part I have heard of, indeed). The press will do nothing, too afraid to go against establishment.

Can you give a link to where you read this.

 

[Valentijn]

I doubt this very much, but if you have any evidence of this happening, please provide the details, as the press should be alerted to investigate an issue like that.

A boy in his early teens couldn't get assistance to go to the bathroom as an inpatient at a hospital. His mother described it on another forum two or three years ago while the treatment was ongoing, and she wasn't allowed to help him during her visits. He suffered for an hour or two with the pain of needing to urinate, while they both cried, then he was eventually able to recover enough to get there on his own (praise Jebus).

That was in Australia, at Princess Margaret Hospital. A special (2 week?) in-patient program for brainwashing teens with supposed psychosomatic disorders (though they didn't call it that), and getting them back into a school routine. The mother deleted her posts after forum members failed to be inspired by the power of prayer causing the described "miracle", and I might have suggested that it seemed like she'd rather have a dead child than a chronically ill child

Edited: I think the program is described in the context of CFS at http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/answer-tired-teen-mystery . They get us all better! Also, the mother's username was "Rileysmom" from what I recall, though she deleted her account. I don't think she was active anywhere else.

 

[MeSci]

Naturally, on this forum and wider society some ME and organic CFS patients have had their lives devastated by psychologists and psychiatrists accusing them of being depressed (when they aren't) and some patients becoming permanently relapsed by following the advice by therapists (such as OT's and physical therapists) that exercise won't harm them, and it 'works' for CFS. In extreme cases, patients can die from this advice, like the UK Member of Parliament who collapsed and died after attending a Gym after being advised he could exercise himself well.

Do you have a link for this, @Research 1st? (The MP bit)

 

[luludji]

Hello hip, I try to sent you a personal post about above but did not figure out yet how...