Depression Poll

[MeSci]

I feel many doctors mistake fatigue (and lack of energy) for depression. Especially when they think CFS or Fibro are psychiatric. Fatigue can cause symptoms found in depression - talking slower, not smiling as much, not talking as much, isolating socially, needing naps, etc.

Personally I am depressed but I work at keeping it minimized. I found it's hard to separate my own fatigue from depression sometimes. A friend (with ME) said it took years to figure out, and I agree.

I feel fatigue and depression are two distinctly different things, but when someone has both, there's more confusion and complexity.

I would guess that the same goes for pain. It must be very hard to smile when you have chronic pain.

 

[GracieJ]

@Bananas I disagree that the "symptoms are the same." Some are the same, some overlap, but you can say the same thing for cancer. I do find it intriguing that both depression and ME/CFS show similar brain activity, but so do other ailments, if you follow SPECT research.

Clinical depression, I could still make myself shower, dress, and function. Many people never caught on. The world felt black and bleak and hopeless and very scary.

There is a definite difference between situational depression and what you think and feel emotionally, over physical symptoms running the show. Situational depression, you are still in the driver's seat and still in your own skin, for the most part. I had to watch situational issues carefully so it didn't trigger a full episode of the other kind.

When FMS and ME/CFS came into my life, I knew these were something new and different. I want to do things but cannot, and have to exercise discipline the other way to slow down. It actually taught me new ways to deal with depression (co-morbidity in my case, I believe). Thank goodness that piece has died out. At the same time, I had a strict rule of showering and dressing regardless that has helped with the ME/CFS most of the time, hindered me other times. I think I finally know when to let things slide for the day.

I agree with @SickOfSickness it can take years to figure out which symptoms are which with all the overlap.

And, of course, it all looks the same to others... *Sigh.* Just snap out of it, right?

 

[Bananas]

No I didn't mean that all the symptoms were the same. I meant that a person with clinical depression might have, let's say, fatigue as a result, and so might someone with M.E. or someone with clinical depression might struggle to hold a conversation and so might someone with M.E. Not that the whole range of symptoms would be the same, just the outward expression of some symptoms of the two very different conditions. My whole point was that my husband, for whom both the above symptoms apply, has never shown any sign whatsoever of having clinical depression. I have had glimpses of it - feeling dark and doomy when there isn't really any reason to, but he never has. If he is feeling miserable he can tell you precisely why, and most of the time it is the M.E. and more specifically his frustration at all the things he can't do that he wants to do.

 

[ukxmrv]

"Leonard Jason, a professor of psychology at DePaul University in Chicago and a widely respected ME/CFS researcher, said that a good strategy for distinguishing between the illness and depression is to ask patients what they would do if they suddenly recovered. Those suffering from a major depressive disorder, he said, would likely say they didn’t know. “But someone with ME/CFS would probably begin making lists of all the things that they wanted to do,” he said."

http://www.buzzfeed.com/davidtuller/chronic-fatigue-syndrome#.hb9X3XvlY

 

[Bananas]

Yes! He could tell you exactly what he would like to do! Go for long walks for a start, travel abroad again, develop his career, etc.

 

[Kati]

I think my sensibility for depression is a symptom of ME.

It can be influenced for the better by rest and a save environment.
But now circumstances are bad... dealing with ignorant docters, losing my home (where should I live?), worried about my child....

So very depressed at the moment, and indeed, "depression is too light a word".

Welcome to the forums @luludji, I 'liked' your post because I agreed with you. i am sorry about your circumstances and wish the very best for you. You are in good company here.

 

[Research 1st]

I forgot to add:

If people with ME CFS feel depressed/isolated/anxious irrespective of their own cognition and can't think why, it might considering measuring their GH (Growth Hormone) levels with a 24hr Urine test or better, a GH stimulation test in hospital, if their GH is low on the first test. (A one time GH blood test isn't clinically diagnostic but can allow for more complex testing if indicated).

From talking with patients it appears some people with an ME CFS run a serially low, low/normal level but aren't screened so never know until years later.

I'd like to see if pituitary antibodies are demonstrated in ME CFS patients. I heard something along the lines of this was being looked at in the UK but I forget which group and if/when a paper is to be published.

 

[MeSci]

Various physiological abnormalities can cause depression and anxiety: for example, high interferon levels can cause depression, as can an imbalance of gut flora which reduces serotonin production. Diet can help with the latter. A low-carb diet helps many reduce anxiety levels, perhaps partly through stabilising blood glucose.

 

[Antares in NYC]

Various physiological abnormalities can cause depression and anxiety: for example, high interferon levels can cause depression, as can an imbalance of gut flora which reduces serotonin production. Diet can help with the latter. A low-carb diet helps many reduce anxiety levels, perhaps partly through stabilising blood glucose.

Check this article: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...-allergic-reaction-inflammation-immune-system

Is depression a kind of allergic reaction?
A growing number of scientists are suggesting that depression is a result of inflammation caused by the body’s immune system

 

[Apple]

My husband finds having CFS depressing. But he is not clinically depressed. Some days, it all gets too much for him and he becomes overwhelmed about the fact that he has been ill for 15 years, and he gets very upset. After a good outburst, he usually feels a whole lot better. We live within the parameters of his illness, and within those parameters, we have a nice life, plenty to laugh at, etc. Nothing about his 'down days' is indicative of clinical depression, but obviously the symptoms of M.E./CFS are the same as depression, but are caused by a different malefactors. I think M.E. might cause a depression prone person to get depression on top of the M.E. but for a non-depression prone person, it is just depressing. I actually think my husband has a high level of resistance to clinical depression.

This completely sums me up. I don't consider myself to suffer from depression, but I certainly have days where I get overwhelmed by it all and feel that I've had enough and can't continue.. but after a good meltdown or two, it passes. I would never choose this life, but I see the goodness in it and remain hopeful.

Overall, depression or not; I think we are pretty strong bunch of people.

 

[Antares in NYC]

This completely sums me up. I don't consider myself to suffer from depression, but I certainly have days where I get overwhelmed by it all and feel that I've had enough and can't continue.. but after a good meltdown or two, it passes. I would never choose this life, but I see the goodness in it and remain hopeful.

Overall, depression or not; I think we are pretty strong bunch of people.

Completely agree with the sentiment. Some days it's just incredibly difficult to cope with this illness. I truly hate the vicious circle that some doctors started with me in relation to depression.
I don't have depression, but after I got CFS and my everyday life was impacted by it, I started to feel "depressed." My main practitioner would just skip all that "CFS nonsense", claim I was depressed, and prescribe me the latest anti-depressant pill.

I'm not joking if i tell you I tried them all. This doctor would try one after another, to no avail or improvement on my part. Instead of looking at a different diagnosis, he would just try a different kind or brand of antidepressant. So Paxil is not for you? Let's try Wellbutrin! It didn't work? How about a few months on Zoloft? Maybe we should add Abilify! And so on, for years on end

One thing that antidepressants have truly accomplished over the last few decades is making doctors particularly lazy, lumping anything they didn't know into the "psychosomatic" box, and dispatching the patient with antidepressant pills like it was candy. Big pharma made out like bandits too.

I have to say, after trying every latest fad in the last 16 years, that they did nothing for me. Not a thing. Waste of time, efforts and money.

 

[Bananas]

One thing that antidepressants have truly accomplished over the last few decades is making doctors particularly lazy, lumping anything they didn't know into the "psychosomatic" box, and dispatching the patient with antidepressant pills like it was candy. Big pharma made out like bandits too.

My husband was prescribed amytriptylene (excuse probably wrong spelling). But anyway, he was given that to help him sleep. Sometimes he would take a quarter of a pill, but it would leave him feeling muzzy headed the next day, and if he took it to get through a bad bout of insomnia, he would very quickly get 'addicted' and find himself unable to sleep without it, so had to go cold turkey. I wonder whether having been given an antidepressant for insomnia it now has him down as 'depressed' on his medical notes.

 

[Hip]

My husband finds having CFS depressing. But he is not clinically depressed.

This completely sums me up. I don't consider myself to suffer from depression, but I certainly have days where I get overwhelmed by it all and feel that I've had enough and can't continue..

I don't have depression, but after I got CFS and my everyday life was impacted by it, I started to feel depressed.

I have noticed many people on this forum saying a similar things to the above three quotes: that even though they are experiencing depression, somehow it's not real depression, but is merely due to the limitations and tribulations brought on by ME/CFS.

Well firstly, depression is depression no matter whether the cause is through life circumstances (like facing a serious disease) or through some biochemical cause that precipitates depression (like having a brain infection that produces interferon, which is a known trigger of depression).

Secondly, I wonder whether there may be mental health stigma at play here: people may not want to be labelled having with a mental health condition such as depression, because of the stigma attached to mental health. So rather than admitting to depression, it conceivable that patients may say "I'd be fine it if were not for my ME/CFS".

Thirdly, patients whose depression is caused by a biochemical dysfunction (such as having a brain infection) may not appreciate that depression can be caused in this way, and so misattribute their biochemically-induced depression to life circumstances instead.

It always amazes me how un-depressed people with ME CFS are. The people I've met, housebound people or bedridden never sound low and beaten down, quite far from it.

I agree, many ME/CFS patients are of surprisingly good cheer, and no doubt this is because ME/CFS in its pure form does not involve any depression. But quite a few patients do have depression as a comorbidity or consequence of their ME/CFS.

someone who is depressed in the non-medical sense of the word - whose mood is low, who experiences persistent and recurring dysphoria, chiefly as a response to having to cope with the relentless burden of a chronic untreatable illness. Few people under similar circumstances would not experience low mood, I think.

Well if you consider @Research 1st's post quoted just above, he points out how many ME/CFS patients he has met never sound low and beaten down. So it appears that for many people, there is nothing intrinsically depressing about having ME/CFS, and even those bedridden by ME/CFS may be in good spirits.

So this suggests that the people who believe their depression is caused by the limitations and tribulations of ME/CFS may have misattributed the cause, since many people with ME/CFS are in surprisingly good cheer.

In other words, if ME/CFS is not intrinsically depressing for many patients, if you are depressed, does it make sense to blame your depression on the limitations and tribulations of ME/CFS?

 

[Antares in NYC]

So this suggests that the people who believe their depression is caused by the limitations and tribulations of ME/CFS may have misattributed the cause, since many people with ME/CFS are in surprisingly good cheer.

Completely disagree with your broad assessment. I also think you missed the part where doctors kept telling me my symptoms were "all in my head" and prescribed me every antidepressant in the market, which did nothing for me. Well, nothing other than delay my actual diagnosis by proper specialists that saw and recognized the symptoms.

Sorry if I sound defensive, but this is a very sensitive subject for me, and I bet for many other ME/CFS patients that have been mistreated and mislabeled by the medical system.

In other words, if ME/CFS is not intrinsically depressing for many patients, if you are depressed, does it make sense to blame your depression on the limitations and tribulations of ME/CFS?

No, Hip, I should be throwing a party every day for what ME/CFS has done to my life, my body, my cognitive abilities, my memories, my finances, and my career prospects.

Yes, I blame any current mood issues on this nasty curse, sixteen years too long already. I was neither depressed, nor had any kind of depression before this happened to me. I don't often let it get to me, but some days it's just too much. I'm still human under this messed up body.

 

[Hip]

@Antares in NYC
This thread is about whether ME/CFS patients have depression as a comorbidilty or not.

If you were once misdiagnosed by the medical profession, that is unfortunate (although not uncommon), but is not the subject matter here. And if like many ME/CFS patients you have been told "it's all in you head", well that is certainly very annoying and insulting, but again, it's not really the subject of this thread.


The questionnaire in this thread is very simple: it just asks are you depressed? If you are, for whatever reason, you should really answer "yes". If ME/CFS patients are experiencing depression, but answer "no" to this questionnaire because they blame their depression on the tribulations of having ME/CFS, well that is wrong, and will skew the poll results.

If you have depression, whatever you blame it on, it's still depression.



I would say that anyone who experiences bouts of significant depression should also answer "yes" in this poll. I get bouts of depression, which last for some weeks or even months, and then disappear again for similar periods, for no apparent rhyme or reason; so I answered "yes" to this poll, even though I have no depression at the moment.



Some ME/CFS patients, myself included, can experience constant anhedonia and blunted affect (emotional flatness), though whether this should be classed as depression I am not sure; anhedonia is certainly a common sub-symptom of depression, but depression is more than just anhedonia.

 

[Misfit Toy]

So far it's saying that most people are saying they are not depressed. Hardly any are. Are you kidding me?! Yes you are. I see and read it all of the time on here. Be real and don't worry about the stigma.

I'm depressed. I admit it. I'm tired, in pain, can't sleep and I've lost so much of my life. Yes, the illness is doing this, but I'm depressed whatever the cause.

People are frightened to say here by this poll that they are depressed. Why? You are. There's no shame in that.

 

[Valentijn]

The questionnaire in this thread is very simple: it just asks are you depressed? If you are, for whatever reason, you should really answer "yes". If ME/CFS patients are experiencing depression, but answer "no" to this questionnaire because they blame their depression on the tribulations of having ME/CFS, well that is wrong, and will skew the poll results.

Being unhappy or upset is not depression. And that seems to be what many here are experiencing from time to time, as a consequence of the disease and their treatment.

I also asked that people vote based on which response is most accurate, most of the time. If someone is a bit upset from time to time, but generally not depressed, then they don't have depression and the answer would be "no".

To quote the NHS website: "Most people experience feelings of stress, sadness or anxiety during difficult times. A low mood may improve after a short time, rather than being a sign of depression." This temporary reaction seems to be what most "no" voting patients are describing here, even if they (incorrectly) use the term "depression" to describe that temporary reactive state.

And finally, if anyone feels differently about their initial response, this poll allows them to change their answer at any time.

 

[Valentijn]

Secondly, I wonder whether there may be mental health stigma at play here: people may not want to be labelled having with a mental health condition such as depression, because of the stigma attached to mental health. So rather than admitting to depression, it conceivable that patients may say "I'd be fine it if were not for my ME/CFS".

So far it's saying that most people are saying they are not depressed. Hardly any are. Are you kidding me?! Yes you are. I see and read it all of the time on here. Be real and don't worry about the stigma.

I can't speak for everyone of course, but I find the stigma accusations to be quite bizarre. If I wanted to avoid stigma, I'd hang out at an MS forum and tell everyone in my life that that's what I have, not ME/CFS Additionally, people here seem to be very accepting and supporting when ME patients or others are suffering from mood disorders.

I'm also not sure where you're getting the idea that so many here are depressed, based upon their forum posts. Some are certainly struggling on a regular basis, and most of us have bad days or weeks, especially during crashes ... but it's certainly not something that seems to occur "all of the time".

And 20-25% feeling depressed is quite a lot of people, compared to the general population. It's just much lower than most BPS studies where "I can't watch TV or read a book anymore" and "I can't do the physical activities I used to do" are equated to being depressed, even when the actual recommended threshold for depression is not crossed.

I'd counter that depression is not a particularly widespread problem for ME/CFS patients, especially when compared to other chronic multi-system illness. But rather some BPS morons have repeated the mantra of "depression" and "stigma" so often that some of us start to believe them when we hear them say it often enough.

There are two dangers to accepting their assertion of near-universal depression in ME. The first has been mentioned by others: ME patients end up being treated for depression while having their biological symptoms ignored. The second risk is that ME patients with depression will ignore it, or have it ignored by doctors, as "just another ME symptom", instead of getting the help necessary for coping with such a serious problem.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Well, I do see depression on here Valentijn. People write me PM's and let me know their truth. They don't always confess for all to see. Plus, I read jealousy posts, pacing posts, all kinds of sad and depressed folks on here. Almost...almost everyone who is sick is depressed because of their illness. Not everyone, but most.

Those that claim they aren't, I sometimes wonder if they want to come off all shiny and fabulous. Maybe you are not. Maybe you are fine with your BF and all that goes on...but many who are financially strapped, tired, can't do much, don't have help....are.

I know that for years I said I wasn't depressed with this illness. I was frightened of that stigma. I say stigma because when I was first diagnosed with CFS, all docs thought I was just mental and yes...that's a stigma because they treated me like I was crazy. I'm not scared of that "stigma" anymore. I know I'm sick. Docs know I'm sick. I've got blood work to prove it and yup, I'm depressed. It's a shame they started believing me in my 30's.

And I know there are so many lurking in the shadows that read these posts, rarely comment...they are depressed and I know this because they email me. People are also frightened of who sees what on here. Are CFIDS higher ups on here, or the government? We don't always know anymore who or what is watching us.


And let's not forget how many people end their lives because of this illness. They weren't happy when they went out, that's for sure.

 

[GracieJ]

Emotional sadness and depressed mood from life circumstances is not the same as the bad chemical trip an imbalance in the body can cause. English does not differentiate between the two. I do not believe "depression is depression" regardless of the cause. My experience with it was vastly different depending on circumstances.

Traditional Chinese medicine describes depression in the body five or six different ways. I think in our western world those have been lumped together as a "brain" imbalance. What "chemicals" are imbalanced? It is a theory only. Personally, I do not think depression exists as a disorder or disease in its own right. I think it is almost always secondary if not tertiary or even further down.

I could write much more on this, having had years of experience to form what I believe about depression.

Suffice it to say that I like Dr. Daniel Amen's analogy that the brain is the hardware of the soul.

Also, considering how bad I became during the depressed years, whenever I got on a depression chat or forum, oddly enough I could never relate to others even with the same symptoms.

I think it is an overly broad assumption to say others are depressed here without knowing more or their saying so.