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Deplin vs Methyl folate

helios

Senior Member
Messages
136
Location
Brisbane
I am doing Fredd's protocol. I was the type of responder that felt good initially then started to feel worse. I dialled back the amounts and felt not so bad, but naturally I want to increase them over time to make the protocol worthwhile. I had a little break recently from the supps, and had to admit I felt better for it. I decided to play around a little now and just take methyl folate. With the day, I had sore muscles, sore eyes, teeth felt a little sore, felt a little more lacklustre and got myself a big headache on 2 lots of400mcg. I also took some potassium in the afternoon. Similar sort of reaction I had in the past when I first jumped on methyl folate and took 400-800mg.

Okay so here is my question. the drug/medicated food supplement Deplin which is prescribed to many people with depression or mental health issues is basically methylfolate. It contains 7500mcg. Reading numerous threads on users experiences with this supplement, I don't see much in the way of negative symptoms experienced by the users, and these people are taking significantly greater amount then many of the people on this forum. What I usually read is that for some Deplin makes no difference and for many its makes a huge difference for the better to their mental well being. Quite a few of these people had genetic testing done which supported they had the MTHFR polymorphism and why they felt so much better on it. I don't understand how this supplement which is a very high dose of 5-mthf (and expensive) can result in so many clear cut outcomes within a very short period of time too for these mental health issue people, yet for lots of folks here its a drama to take.....on a fraction of the dose!
Why isn't Deplin resulting in all the nasty symptoms people incur here when they kick start the methylation cycle? (some do get symptoms which I recognize as low potassium though)
 

helios

Senior Member
Messages
136
Location
Brisbane
Thats what came to mind initially for me. I have had a lot of problems with chemical sensitivities which I assumed was a problem with my methylation cycle and was something I hoped would disappear though they are not as bad as they used to be when I was younger. These people who get prescribed Deplin many have had depression & anxiety & mood disorders for a lot of their life reading some of their stories.They feel like they did 20 yrs ago with a week of taking Deplin. (7.5-15mg/day) they have obviously been suffereing from a defect in methylation for a long time like lots here too, but dont have any of the detox problems from 5-mthf, yet had mental problems relating to it which cleared up quickly. Their mental issues resolve in a week or two. So if its so easy for them on deplin, then methylation is an issue but only just one little piece of the puzzle then for us. Some threads on here treat it like it is a huge piece of the puzzle for many here. I appreciate what you are saying but just dont know if it is that simple....maybe.
 

shah78

Senior Member
Messages
168
Location
st pete , florida
I think about this question(s) every single day. Thanks for starting the thread. Methylation was a huge "piece of the puzzle" for me, but I take doseages on your level. So I'm a member off both groups. A good problem to have, but even more confusing than your situation. I've spend the entire post startup period(frome day 3)trying to take less stuff, because the b12 puts me to sleep during the day.I work around it, because I get four stepes forward vs one step back, but I constantly dreamof taking three steps forward with no step back. Reading about these huge numbers of mcgs people take is mindbending for me. I'm down to 600 mcg. of b9 and 366mcg of mb12 and 400 mcgs of ab12. and I'm moving in the lower direction. Keep bumping this thread until we get some answers/theories.
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
Same thing for me and same questions. Given that 1200mcg of sublingual methylfolate can activate an incredible amount of anxiety and irritability, I wouldn't dare to even touch a Deplin pill :D

Strangely oral metafolin doesn't do that. I can take 1200mcg with no effects whatsoever while 800mcg of sublingual Quatrefolic already stimulates anxiety, although manageable. I guess it's related with digestion/absorption issues.

I prefer to listen to how my body reacts than to the anxiety of getting results.
 

shah78

Senior Member
Messages
168
Location
st pete , florida
@ adreno. If my reaction to b9/b12 was so sudden, Do you think I actually have/had CFS? and not just a methylation defect? I staqrted my Fredd protocol ass backward. I was up to 2000 mcg. folate for three weeks before starting mb12. The folate did very little to me oneway or another. The only positive, I was more anobolic after the gym, the only negative, I felt like I had polllen alergies. The M12 and ab12 hit like a rock., 80% GOOD. perhaps this is why I pissed you off last week. lol. Maybe I never had thirty years of cfs? I just had a methylation issue?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
@ adreno. If my reaction to b9/b12 was so sudden, Do you think I actually have/had CFS? and not just a methylation defect? I staqrted my Fredd protocol ass backward. I was up to 2000 mcg. folate for three weeks before starting mb12. The folate did very little to me oneway or another. The only positive, I was more anobolic after the gym, the only negative, I felt like I had polllen alergies. The M12 and ab12 hit like a rock., 80% GOOD. perhaps this is why I pissed you off last week. lol. Maybe I never had thirty years of cfs? I just had a methylation issue?
I believe CFS is a wastebasket diagnosis. What my point was, is that we all here have chronic illness in some form or another, and that's the reason we react negatively to these supps. I don't think you can diagnose whether you have CFS or not based on your reaction to methyl supps.

CFS is a clinical diagnosis, meaning that one doctor can decide that you have it, while another can decide that you don't. Ultimately only you can decide whether this diagnosis is useful to you or not. A diagnosis is only useful to me if it can guide me towards effective treatment, otherwise it's just a label.

I don't have a CFS (or any other) diagnosis, but I take part in discussions here because my cluster of symptoms match closely with others here. I don't find it very useful to ponder whether I should have the CFS label or not. I'm a pragmatist and interested in solutions.
 
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fibrodude84

Senior Member
Messages
191
I have been taking 15mg of Deplin for 10 days. No potassium. I don't feel better or worse. With the major reactions here I can't understand why a high dose doesn't help or hurt me.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Because those other people don't have ME/CFS.

@adreno, I agree with you that many of the people taking Deplin for depression do not have ME/CFS and in addition, they may not be taking B-12 so they are not actually starting up the methylation cycle if just taking Folate alone (unless I am incorrect about this?)
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
@adreno, I agree with you that many of the people taking Deplin for depression do not have ME/CFS and in addition, they may not be taking B-12 so they are not actually starting up the methylation cycle if just taking Folate alone (unless I am incorrect about this?)
A relatively healthy person should already have a functioning methylation and B12 would already be part of his diet.

In other words it's pretty much expected that a person without methylation issues will not experience any particular issues from taking high dose methylfolate.
 

fibrodude84

Senior Member
Messages
191
Why would that be different from cfs? Shouldn't cfs patients also usually have normal b12 levels since diagnostic testing come back normal.

How come some cfs patients can be on a high dose without issue.
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
Why would that be different from cfs? Shouldn't cfs patients also usually have normal b12 levels since diagnostic testing come back normal.

How come some cfs patients can be on a high dose without issue.
That's a good point.
Maybe not all CFS patients may have big methylation issues, although it seems that really many do.

Normal B12 levels in which sense? Serum B12 means little to nothing. Many people, myself included, have ok serum B12 levels but when you run a methylation lab test the results come back horrible. Even just homocysteine levels in may case were off the roof (with "ok" b12)

Oxidative stress alone can cause lots of methylation issues and thus require support via additional B12, folate, B6 etc...
 

aturtles

Senior Member
Messages
129
Location
Seattle, WA
I started on Deplin-15 due to SNPs that indicated poor methylation and severe fatigue that supported the diagnosis. But it wasn't anywhere near enough and I went through lots of hells before I found this forum and the Freddd protocol in particular, and I assure you that I needed the Deadlock Quartet, just as Freddd says, to get to start-up then a steady state of feeling good. But it took me months of high-dose DQ, plenty of potassium, and attention to all the co-factors. Only the l-methylfolate would not have done it.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,555
Location
Seattle
Same thing for me and same questions. Given that 1200mcg of sublingual methylfolate can activate an incredible amount of anxiety and irritability, I wouldn't dare to even touch a Deplin pill :D

Strangely oral metafolin doesn't do that. I can take 1200mcg with no effects whatsoever while 800mcg of sublingual Quatrefolic already stimulates anxiety, although manageable. I guess it's related with digestion/absorption issues.

I prefer to listen to how my body reacts than to the anxiety of getting results.

@PeterPositive: Okay, I'm confused again. Metafolin, which you had no effects from is the same thing as Deplin, just a much lower dose. Quatrefolic is a different form -- attached to a glucosamine salt? -- so maybe that was causing the anxiety?

Three years ago I had disastrous results from starting methylation, and I attributed it mainly to the evil methylfolate and methyl-b12, but my doc had also prescribed several other forms of both b12 and folate. Plus in the month or so prior, I was having almost the same issues from the various forms of calcium she was prescribing -- so it could've been the combination, or food intolerances, etc. -- could have been due to many factors.

But then in late 2011, I tried small bits of methylfolate from time to time, and looking back on my notes, I was able to stand longer, was feeling more hopeful and like I could walk back to the store (when the day or two earlier I wouldn't have thought about it).

@helios @adreno @shah78 @fibrodude84 @Gingergrrl

So now I wonder if even if one has ME/CFS, that perhaps a particular patient might do well on Deplin, or high-dose methylfolate or even folinic (as shown in the CFS study), for whatever reason. Some patients have been shown to have folate auto-antibodies, which might explain not only why they may need high doses, but need to stay on those high doses?

I definitely agree that some warnings are in order, but just because some of us may have had a (really bad) reaction to methylfolate (or whatever) or may attribute increased anxiety, etc., to a supplement, may not mean it's not the right dose for someone else -- especially if they're not experiencing a negative reaction.

???
 
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dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,555
Location
Seattle
Also, back in 2002 I had a year of extreme anxiety -- wired but tired to the max -- and a lot of very disturbing physical symptoms (similar to late 2010) and became really obsessive about trying to resolve it. Seemed like I tried everything.

Then finally, I got in touch with a doc I had seen a year or two earlier, and he prescribed methyl-b12 shots along with nebulized glutathione. My obsessiveness stopped within a few days, and my symptoms diminished over the next month or two.

But by June of 2003, the anxiety/mood swings/wired but tired stuff had become bad again, so I had another appointment w/the doc and mentioned that another doc had told me (through 'vega' testing) that I was low in thiamine. So the doc prescribed thiamine injections, and within a week or so I was so calm I thought I could quit the clonazepam cold turkey. And my overall energy/health improved to about 70%. This lasted for about a year, until my money ran out and stress went waaaaay up. And by that time, I forgot all about the thiamine and the methylb12 -- only realized how helpful they were when I found receipts for them two years ago.

Ah, the joys of brainfog. Anyway, just throwing it out there as an example of another option that some might find helpful -- and I wasn't taking any methylfolate. Don't even know if they made it back then...
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
@PeterPositive: Okay, I'm confused again. Metafolin, which you had no effects from is the same thing as Deplin, just a much lower dose. Quatrefolic is a different form -- attached to a glucosamine salt? -- so maybe that was causing the anxiety?
I am still not sure. I suspect it's the absorption variable that is causing the problem.
I guess an oral tablet is absorbed more slowly than a fast dissolving sublingual lozenge. I have taken oral Quatrefolic and it did not bother me.

I've repeated the experiment a few weeks ago and I can now tolerate 1600mcg of sublingual Quatrefolic. It gives me a bit of anxiety, much less than 10 months ago. In general, however, I prefer to take oral Metafolin and avoid any extra anxiety.

Three years ago I had disastrous results from starting methylation, and I attributed it mainly to the evil methylfolate and methyl-b12, but my doc had also prescribed several other forms of both b12 and folate. Plus in the month or so prior, I was having almost the same issues from the various forms of calcium she was prescribing -- so it could've been the combination, or food intolerances, etc. -- could have been due to many factors.
Yes, too many variables. It's hard to say what's the cause.
I also struggled with methyl supplements and it has taken me a long time to increase the dosage. Especially methyl-B12.

But then in late 2011, I tried small bits of methylfolate from time to time, and looking back on my notes, I was able to stand longer, was feeling more hopeful and like I could walk back to the store (when the day or two earlier I wouldn't have thought about it).
That's a good sign.