Decreased Expression of the CD57 Molecule in T Lymphocytes of Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. (Espinosa, 2019)

[sometexan84]

I believe some of this is semantics. The CD8+ marker is for Cytotoxic. I believe the CD57+ is often used as a marker for NKT cells (which can be CD8+ cytotoxic T-cells).

 

[Pyrrhus]

You may be confusing CD56 with CD57...

From page 6 of your very helpful guide:

Generally speaking, Natural Killer T cells are not the same as Cytotoxic T cells.

 

[sometexan84]

Anywho...

Hopefully you will be just as excited when I post all this stuff at once. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. But there are actually more compelling immunological abnormalities at the cellular level found in ME/CFS than this.

 

[Muon]

CD57 defines a functionally distinct population of mature NK cells in the human CD56dimCD16+ NK-cell subset

Figure 2: CD57 in human natural killer cells and T-lymphocytes

My results:
NK cells 113 /uL (210 - 740)
CD57+ NK cells 35 .0 /uL (60 - 360)

The group of CD57+ NK cells is a mature subset of CD3-CD56 as far as I know.

 

[Hubris]

I have to laugh when these studies say there are no specific biological markers in cfsme. They only been researching and finding low nk function in cfsme patients at griffith university australia since about 2009.

Dr Nancy Klimas has found low nk function in cfsers since the mid 80s.

Really! This is something they should be chasing down the dam rabitt hole. Stands out like dog nuggets and could easily be responsible for the onset of cfsme but also could make cfsme a chronic illness as we no longer have a healthy immune system to suppress viruses that normal people can.

The only genuine immune drug helpful for cfs, ampligen, not only improved ohysical symptoms like general wellbeing, aerobic capacity and suprise suprise, it increased NK function.
See said the blind man.

Slightly different subject, but are they testing the nk function of the covid long hallers?

Not every patient has low NK function (i don't for example, even though i have extremely low CD8+CD57+ cells). If i remember correctly from the studies it's about 70% of patients. So unfortunately it is not a marker for ME/CFS

 

[sometexan84]

There's a lot of contradicting evidence in this area unfortunately.

I know people will get mad if I go too off-topic. But just a quick mention of what actually appears consistently...

• Decreased CD56 (Neural cell adhesion molecule, NCAM) - regulates NK cell cytotoxicity
  • multiple ME/CFS studies, no contradictions
• Decreased CD127 (Interleukin-7 receptor subunit alpha, IL7R-α) marker suggests long-living memory CD8+ T cells. Decreased CD127 expression indicates cellular immune function impairment.
  • multiple ME/CFS studies, no contradictions

Last but not least...

• Decreased CD11b (Integrin Alpha M, ITGAM) – Modulates functions in innate immune cells, including cell adhesion, migration, and phagocytosis
  • only 1 study, but I think it's important

 

[heapsreal]

Not every patient has low NK function (i don't for example, even though i have extremely low CD8+CD57+ cells). If i remember correctly from the studies it's about 70% of patients. So unfortunately it is not a marker for ME/CFS

It could be used as a marker. This is different to a diagnostic test. Just like markers in other diseases that just have to say they find 70% of cfs pts have low nk function. They could easily use nk function as a part of a diagnosis in conjunction the current cfs criteria. Many diseases have multiple markers to help make a diagnosis and not all markers have to be positive.

I believe its probably higher than 70% but lets go with that, why isnt there more research into this as it is the majority of cfsers. This is not to say leave other cfsers behind. Im not sure if the Australian researchers printed this or just told us who were in the study at the time but they also found a significant number of cfsers had low cd8 t cell function. So its possible that many cfsers have multiple nk and T cell dysfunctions.

Even if we left the whole cfs diagnosis out of the picture. If someone is chronically unwell and has low nk function, diagnose them with low nk function and have specific treatment plan outlined for these people. Basic immunology one can say that with poor nk function this leaves one open to many infections and a higher risk of cancers.

If someone is born with a genetic disorder of low nk cell numbers, they actually get diagnosed with this. Treatment for this is preventative and they can put patients on antivirals to prevent herpes viruses from reactivating etc. Low nk function seems to be ignored. It might not be an immune deficiency like low nk numbers but it is a dysfunctional immune deficiency.

That's might rant about something thats been known for almost 40yrs and may improve or eliminate the majority of cfsme cases.

 

[Hubris]

I would call it dysautonomia since it is due to a dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system. But yes, prolonged activation of the sympathetic nervous system, whether due to chronic stress or dysautonomia, can suppress the immune system.

I have emailed a few people involved in studies with these cells and according to them another possible explanation for a low CD8+CD57+ number could be an overactive immune system. This wouldn't be a stretch because a while ago i tested CD40L, which is mainly expressed on activated T cells, and it was 3 times over the upper limit. So it seems that CD8+CD57+ identifies a subset of activated T cells that have "grown old" but doesn't necessarily mean that if you have activated T cells in general you end up with a high CD8+CD57+ number.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Australian researchers printed this or just told us who were in the study at the time but they also found a significant number of cfsers had low cd8 t cell function.

Which researcher was that? Maybe I can find their publication...

This wouldn't be a stretch because a while ago i tested CD40L, which is mainly expressed on activated T cells, and it was 3 times over the upper limit. So it seems that CD8+CD57+ identifies a subset of activated T cells that have "grown old" but doesn't necessarily mean that if you have activated T cells in general you end up with a high CD8+CD57+ number.

Very interesting. So you have many young activated CD8+ T cells, but no old activated CD8+ T cells. That pokes a hole in my dysautonomia theory!

 

[ljimbo423]

I have emailed a few people involved in studies with these cells and according to them another possible explanation for a low CD8+CD57+ number could be an overactive immune system.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I clearly have an upregulated immune system. I haven't had a cold or a flu in 10-15 years or longer and I'm consistently around other people at convenience stores, grocery store or laundry mat.

I did get covid 19 in the beginning of July last year but even that was very mild and I spent no time in bed at all. Covid 19 is much more contagious than colds or flu's though.

I also have fairly consistent mild cold or flu-like symptoms which I'm pretty sure are from my immune system being activated. I get flares that last only 24 hours about every 3-4 months that feel exactly like the flu. Again, pointing to an upregulation of my immune system for that 24 hours.

 

[heapsreal]

Which researcher was that? Maybe I can find their publication...

Griffith university on the Gold Coast, Australia. It was the study on nk function and nk bright/dim cells. Blood test was done at the start of the study and then every 6 months over an 18month period. Im guessing it was 2009/2010.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21619669/
Hopefully helps you find more info on this

 

[heapsreal]

Which researcher was that? Maybe I can find their publication...

Now if you find a way to increase cd8 T cells, id be interested to know

 

[Wishful]

Now if you find a way to increase cd8 T cells,

We need an app that would allow us to vary any factor in our bodies. cd8 cells? Just move the indicator up a bit.

Of course, by the time we reach that level of technology, we probably won't have biological bodies anymore.

 

[heapsreal]

We need an app that would allow us to vary any factor in our bodies. cd8 cells? Just move the indicator up a bit.

Of course, by the time we reach that level of technology, we probably won't have biological bodies anymore.

Funny you mention that as i have thought that many times as well as hormones. Like increasing your idle speed on your car. Or what id really like is a dial and a button to control sleep. Dial in 10mins, hit the button and wake up refreshed. Night time comes i dial in 8hrs and hit the button, Im Out like a light.

Maybe its a common wish for many cfsers

 

[Pyrrhus]

Related discussion about T cells:
Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome patients exhibit altered T cell metabolism and cytokine associations (Hanson et al. 2020)
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...ytokine-associations-hanson-et-al-2020.79143/

Related paper about NK cells:
A systematic review of natural killer cells profile and cytotoxic function in myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (Eaton-Fitch et al. 2019)
https://systematicreviewsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13643-019-1202-6