dealing with low stomach acid.

Lolinda

weird OI: standing up stops my digestion
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I did some searching how the celery could work... to no avail, or at leastnothing believable. but I think one can make an educated guess:
a) it is simply the bitters in it. bitters induce all kind of digestive juices. juicing the bitters from a whole celery head is damn much.
b) nitrate. nitrate is gastroprotective and increases blood flow (and it is fearmongering / close to bullshit that it would increase cancer likelyhood)

mineral salts were mentioned here and there, but I dont believe that. then taking Mg, Ca, salt, etc would also do the trick. at least in me they do not. certainly, if one had a deficiency, of these, it might help to correct that, but thats a different thing.
 
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Gondwanaland

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16oz of celery juice on an empty stomach in the a.m.every morning is the best way to raise your HCL. The mineral salts in celery juice are amazing. HCL tabs never worked for me. I had to start out with 4 oz of the juice and work up.
I suppose the acidifying agent is oxalic acid, which will activate B6 metabolism... Do you have more info on it?
 

Lolinda

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16oz of celery juice on an empty stomach in the a.m.every morning is the best way to raise your HCL. The mineral salts in celery juice are amazing. HCL tabs never worked for me. I had to start out with 4 oz of the juice and work up
we asked you already 1000 questions :) but I ask one more: what did you actually notice and how soon came the effect? did you have manometry or other test to measure gastric acid?

- so I know what and when to watch. thanks many times!!!
I have now 2 big beautiful celery roots and looking forward to juice one tomorrow. already stopped the betaine hcl today (and felt worse), measured the stomach.acid (almost nonexistent), and pray a lot for the wonder to happen tomorrow (I badly need that wonder!!)
 
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Lolinda

weird OI: standing up stops my digestion
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I suppose the acidifying agent is oxalic acid
sure? :)
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48
celery 11-20 mg

Among foods that we profile on our website, the most concentrated oxalate sources (all listed in terms of milligrams per 3-1/2 ounces) include spinach (750-800 mg), beet greens (600-950 mg), almonds (380-470 mg), Swiss chard (200-640 mg), cashews (230-260 mg), and peanuts (140-184 mg).

  • berries, which typically contain between 10-50 mg (with the important exception of gooseberries which can contain 60-90 mg)
  • lemon and lime peel (80-110 mg)
  • nuts besides the high-oxalate nuts listed earlier (40-350 mg)
  • legumes (10-75 mg): with legumes, it is also worth noting that lentils, split peas, black-eyed peas, and garbanzo beans tend to fall at the low end of the spectrum with 10 mg or sometimes even less, while black beans, navy beans and soybeans tend to fall at the higher end with 50 mg or more)
  • grain flours (40-250 mg): with grains and grain products, it is worth noting that brown rice flour and brown rice pastas are among the lowest in oxalate content
  • pasta noodles (made from grains) (20-30 mg)
In gondwanaland everything depends on oxalates and vitamins :D, in lindaland everything on gut bacteria :D. but my feeling is that celery -> stomach acid might be neither...
 

Gondwanaland

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Now I remember what in celery I don't tolerate: nitrates... make me instantly hypothyroid... :rolleyes:
I also brought a big celery from the farmer's market today (no roots though). Since you are in Europe, you go first tomorrow and report back!
 

Lolinda

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what in celery I don't tolerate: nitrates
yes. but those nitrates you dont tolerate are probably the thing that brings about the effect (together wth the bitter taste). I actually kinda almost know it because I had a big increase in stomach acid from munching herb leaves (both felt as increased appetite as well as measured via my home test method using urinary ph test stripes). This is btw another method for increasing stomach acid, which is at least in me proven to work. (dont know if it works with your intolerances, but the method is this: do NOT eat the leaves with food. eat parsley, cilantr, mint or whatever leaves you feel like before meals, in particular on empty stomach in the morning. dont much a full bouquet of parsley. just as you feel, some 20 small stalks or 3 big stalks or such, mixed with a few leaves of mint or so. do this spontaneously during all the day, not immediately before meals because then it just goes with all the food. you want the leaves to be in contact with the stomach wall. I have notes how much effect it brings, can dig that out if of interest)
I have discussed this extensively with the best gastro prof that I have ever seen and it was his suggestion that the nitrates will be the thing. indeed they do a lot of good to the stomach and the blood flow to it. unfortunately, in my present stomach acid crisis even this is not strong enough. here came the idea with celery just in the right moment. normally I do not fully believe it if sbdy just says "my stomach acid increased" because they did not measure that and the symptoms arent that surefire. but here I instantly felt it has a good chance. celery is high in nitrates. the question is if they really come out when juicing. The bitters I will feel. From the literature I know that it can go backward: if nitrates are too high then stomach acid decreases. If you are interested, I have somewhere the publication on that. But currently, I have nothing to lose stomach acid wise.

anywise, I had to postpone the experiment for a stupid simple reason of having no clean cheesecloth. so today I scheduled another test: top up my vastly deficient manganese intake with transdermal manganese. dont know yet if it does any good for anything or if it resorbs at all. before, my experiment with re-introducing coconut meat failed: on repeated on-off-on-off tests it delays motility and causes waking up at night. whatever. so I am left w/o any low carb manganese source, having a daily intake of 30%rdv. not good :) :eek:
 
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Tammy

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I did some searching how the celery could work... to no avail, or at leastnothing believable. but I think one can make an educated guess:
There are numerous articles on salt/chloride and it's connection to HCL .....hydro-chloric acid. chloric meaning salt/chloride
 
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Lolinda

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There are numerous articles on salt/chloride and it's connection to HCL .....hydro-chloric acid. chloric meaning salt/chloride
Definitively, @Tammy indeed, salt intake (as well as other rrinerals)are absolutely necessary for stomach acid production. And lots of folks eat too little of that! Maybe my message was misunderstandable? What I wanted to point out is that if you have enough salt intake, then adding more will not help imo, except for salty pee. Opposing to that, with bitters and nitrate, there is no such thing as a certain amount needed. adding more can have a variety of positive (or negative) effects.

Btw, I think all this is cultural: you are from the US, right? I am under the impression that in the US salt was totally demonized, right? I come from a culture where salt intake is and was liked, and surely everyone has enough.
 

Lolinda

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But what I am really curious about: how fast did effects come after you took the celery drink in the morning? And what exactly did you notice?
 

Tammy

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But what I am really curious about: how fast did effects come after you took the celery drink in the morning? And what exactly did you notice?
I stopped burping so much...........constipation improved..............I didn't feel as bloated........acid reflux better.....it probably took about several months to notice the difference...........but I was on a better diet also. The other people I know that take it have all had different experiences with it. Some see improvements within days........weeks............other people it takes longer. Depends on your history of diet and physical problems.
 

Lolinda

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Since you are in Europe, you go first tomorrow and report back!
ok so I did the experiment. juiced sap from a big beautiful celery root. from half the root, without using a proper juicer but a mixer and cheesecloth, maybe some 0.8 dl came out. Adding to the effect of the celery, I also took my usual dose of betaine hcl with the meal, which currently causes a reliable & predictable small increase of stomach acid. originally, I wanted to do this experiment without betaine hcl, but tested a day off and felt too bad without.

complete failure!
1. I had a flu this morning, started mildly already yesterday. on a flu, stomach acid goes down, so its a difficult time for attempts to increase it...
2. failed for me because it is too sweet. this was totally surprising for me as celery is anything but sweet. but apparently all the little sugar in the celery root goes into the juiced sap. I did drank the juice ( a one-time experiment does not hurt me) but I will not be able to use this as I have to eat extremely low carb otherwise I run into big issues soon.
I know that everyone reading these lines will find them totally odd. but being on a very low carb diet changes taste: grapefruit was incredibly sour before, now it is a sweet fruit!
the problem is that I am on vlcd not because I fhose it but because everything else kills me, even tiny amounts of carbs...
3. measured using my home test method via the urinary alkaline tide, I had exactly zero stomach acid difference pre-postprandial. This is distinctly worse than on all other days currently. I attribute it to the flu. theoretically, it is possible that a too high dose of nitrate inhibits stomach acid (I have a paper on that), but I have difficulties believing that this is the cause. though, its not entirely impossible: some weeks ago, I had a flu too and stomach acid did not went down to zero.

ok, so this one failed for me. not because it couldnt work for the stomach acid, but because its not low carb enough. next try will be using celery leaves juice
 
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Lolinda

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stopped burping so much...........constipation improved..............I didn't feel as bloated........acid reflux better.....it probably took about several months to notice the difference...........but I was on a better diet also. The other people I know that take it have all had different experiences with it. Some see improvements within days........weeks............other people it takes longer. Depends on your history of diet and physical problems.
Thanks for answering! Sounds good! Actually, I had a similarly positive experience munching fresh parsley and other herb leaves (see a few posts above on what exactly I did). But not only did symptoms improve, but I measured it in an on-off-on-off fashion that it really increases stomach acid. The increase came immediately on the same day. That is, munched parsley, etc leaves a while before breakfast, and earned a considerably increased pre-/postprandial ph difference right for the breakfast. Unfortunately, in my current crisis it does not work any more, gives only a tiny pre-/postprandial ph difference, far below the healthy norm.
 
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Lolinda

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Screenshot_2016-08-08-14-41-28.png
Glycine for snoring! I cured my husband's snoring with Mg glycinate back in December 2014. I know it ties in with B6 some place along the pathway
imagine, my snoring went away from b5. I measure it every night using sleepphases or snoreclock. it was around 16-30% of the sleeping time. on b5 it went every day lower and lower ind in a couple of days it was at a few percent, rarely bouncing back to 15% or so. here are the fancy stats this app produces :D
 
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Lolinda

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and sorry to everyone for the total offtopic :( shame on me. I try to look innocent.... :angel:
 

kangaSue

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I have discussed this extensively with the best gastro prof that I have ever seen and it was his suggestion that the nitrates will be the thing. indeed they do a lot of good to the stomach and the blood flow to it.
Dietary nitrates are natural vasodilators so you get a boost in blood flow to the bowel from them. They also help the stomach to relax which is an aid to stomach emptying when this is impaired because the lack of stomach motility results in a more rigid stomach than normal after eating.
 

heyitisjustin

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It could but then after you blend you would need to sieve it through a cheesecloth because you just want the juice and not the fiber.
To save money you can use the blender (unless fiber worsens your stomach irritation or dysbiosis). It will fill you up more, but its worth a shot.
 

Lolinda

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I completely failed to increase stomach acid, whatever I tried: celery or a whole bunch of parsley/cilantro for tons of nitrate; or tons of salt or vinegar or hot spices... Both in terms of symptoms (low appetite, bloating, etc) as well in terms of measurements of pre- vs postprandial stomach acid difference: meals do not induce any stomach acid in me. :( :(

So I set out to measure causes:

1) had a gastroscopy. absolutely no sign of athrophy in the stomach ➞ proof that fasting gastric acid level is normal (lack of that causes mucosal athrophy)

2) had a pre/postprandial gastrin test.
before eating: normal:
IMG_20161203_001652.jpg
just after the meat meal: exorbitantly abnormal:
IMG_20161203_001542.jpg
The green circle at 3h shows gastrin values in healthy volunteers (in this study) before and after a meat meal:
IMG_20161203_062139.jpg
Legend: volunteers = healthy, meal = a normal meal including meat, DU = duodenal ulcer, MSF = modified sham feeding.
(Ignore the MSF, it is just that the study had this additional first part, too. The interesting stuff is the second part with the real meal at 3h.)

Now, what does all this mean?
Gastric acid production is, simplyfied:
stimulus (sensing of food, etc) ➞ gastrin ➞ histamine ➞ HCL.​
That is, my body tries desperately to push exorbitant amounts of gastrin in order to get out some gastric acid, but fails. There must be a complete block at the production of histamine or HCL.

Does anyone have an idea how to get further on with tests to find the cause? Science, logic, bare guesses - all welcome. I dont know any further. Doctors proved 'not very skilled' in matters of gastric acid, had to tell them so far what to do... Even if you dont know any further either, it would be really interesting to see any stomach acid related lab values you have and compare. So I encourage everyone to post labs, symptoms, etc!

(Remark about the research cited: if you wonder why it is that in duodenal ulcer, values are somewhat similar as in me: in both cases the body strongly pushes for more stomach acid. The difference is that in me it fails to produce any, in duodenal ulcer it actually does produce too much)
 
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heyitisjustin

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Does anyone have an idea how to get further on with tests to find the cause? Science, logic, bare guesses - all welcome. I dont know any further. Doctors proved 'not very skilled' in matters of gastric acid, had to tell them so far what to do... Even if you dont know any further either, it would be really interesting to see any stomach acid related lab values you have and compare. So I encourage everyone to post labs, symptoms, etc!

(Remark about the research cited: if you wonder why it is that in duodenal ulcer, values are somewhat similar as in me: in both cases the body strongly pushes for more stomach acid. The difference is that in me it fails to produce any, in duodenal ulcer it actually does produce too much)
Do you have any histamine based symptoms? I react badly to old/fermented foods (I can't sleep and my heart races). I am wondering if I have issues generating HCL from histamine. If that were the case I'd assume there'd be little somatostatin. I don't really know how to find a somatostatin test. I googled and all I saw was blood which I wouldn't think would be useful.

Here's a nice flow chart I found
https://courses.washington.edu/conj/bess/acid/intestinalphase3.png

Anyone else have any ideas about how histamine and HCL are connected?
 

Lolinda

weird OI: standing up stops my digestion
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@heyitisjustin great chart! I learned from it that my high fat low carb diet may contribute a bit to my values as it writes that fat decreases stomach acid. Looked this up on gscholar and indeed a study says stomach acid decreases on keto. But then searched a lot if people on ketogenic diet had achlorhydria and did not find anything. The book "Art and science of low carb performance" does not mention stomach acid probs either (though, I do not have a good first impression on this book...). In any case, if there were any serious stomach acid issues on keto, it would be known as a lot of epileptic kids and some long distance runners do keto (with great success, if tolerated). So, no, this wont be the main cause for my issues, and my stomach acid was always low already before keto. But good to have found one possible contributor. Thanks for posting!!

If you have histamine probs, try:
  • a DAO test (diamine oxidase). It is a simple blood test.
DAO is produced in the gut. If it is not used up there, it goes into the blood stream and can be measured there. DAO detoxes histamine. My DAO was totally low before a very low carb diet and got really good after adopting it. The diet saved my life. I had heat flashes, almost no sleep (20h in 10 days), no appetite, etc. Further tests:
  • methylhistamine in 24h urine ➞ you learn if you have overall too much histamine. A negative result does not prevent having much histamine in a specific location.
  • tryptase a few hours after you had a flare of issues.➞ tells about one secific reason for histamine: mast cell degranulation
Nettle tea may help. While it actually increases histamine (or believed to do so... − I dont have a scientific reference on this), it trains the body to cope with this, assuming that you drink it daily. Then histamine issues resolve. I tried this on a friend with success: better sleep.
 
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