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Curcumin questions for atypical depression

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
Hi all

It's been awhile since I have posted and I am still dealing with my atypical low Dopamine/NE depression and I have some questions if anyone can answer. I'll first say that I have tried Curcumin in the past but maybe I was not taking a high enough dosage of it to have an effect. I now started taking a higher dosage and although I feel a bit better my first question concerns the safety of taking higher dosages of it to see if I can get more of a AD response as I know that curcumin has some MAOI properties. Also to let you know stimulants work for me but don't want to become a stim junkie.
Also..sleep deprivation also works for me but obviously not a good solution.

First I'll preface by saying I seem to have a very high tolerance for supplements as I have tried many different ones in the past. I'm taking the Triple Strength Curcumin from Vitamin Shoppe. Each cap is 95% curcumin..900 mg along with 5mg of bioperine. I started taking 2 per day..no real effect. Upped it to 3..got more of an effect. Upped it to 4 per day and got even more of an effect..but I feel like I need to push it more. Is it even safe for me to take 3 per day let alone 4 or even more if I want to push it? If not, can anyone suggest anything else I can throw into the mix without going too high on the curcumin?

I've tried Resveratrol Sustain Alpha LV before and actually got a good response from that but then started getting the achilles heel pain that I understand others have gotten. If I needed to, is taking Resveratrol in combination with Curcumin ok to take together? Maybe by combining them and keeping the Resv dosage lower I can possibly avoid the achilles heel pain.

I'll also let you know that Licorice is a help for me as well. I understand you have to cycle it, but I was more afraid of taking it more for the long term because of it's estrogenic effects. Are any of these 3 safe to take in combination or can anyone suggest anything else I can try? Just to let you know..if you suggest something I've probably tried it already but give it a go anyway LOL.
 

xrunner

Senior Member
Messages
843
Location
Surrey
I also have issues with tendons and most antioxidants make it worse.
Not Resveratrol though, which instead helps me. However, I don't take an isolated Resveratrol product like you, but Japanese Knotweed which has Resveratrol in it. That may be an option for your achilles.
I don;t have experience with Curcumin as it also affects my tendons so I can;t take it. I read an article where the dosage for cancer is up to 9-12 grams daily of curcumin extract.
Cat's claw is also an effective antidepressant. Eleuthero (Siberian Ginseng) is a MAOI inhibitor and also an immune modulator but this one also I can't take as it makes me too hyper.
I used licorice for a couple of years and it certainly had some estrogenic effects but the main one for me was that it affected my sodium and potassium levels, which have returned to normal after about four months off it.

All the best.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/16/antioxidant-resveratrol-on-cancer.aspx
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,079
Location
australia (brisbane)
for low dopamine and noradrenaline, have u tried acetyl tyrosine? I find it gives me an energy boost, i take it first thing in the morning on an empty stomache and wait atleast 1/2hr before eating.

cheers!!!
 

Gavman

Senior Member
Messages
316
Location
Sydney
I agree with heaps idea to lift dopamine and noradrenaline using precursors. Do you find when you stress, adrenaline kicks in? You didnt mention your serotonin levels? what are they like?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Hi all

It's been awhile since I have posted and I am still dealing with my atypical low Dopamine/NE depression and I have some questions if anyone can answer. I'll first say that I have tried Curcumin in the past but maybe I was not taking a high enough dosage of it to have an effect. I now started taking a higher dosage and although I feel a bit better my first question concerns the safety of taking higher dosages of it to see if I can get more of a AD response as I know that curcumin has some MAOI properties. Also to let you know stimulants work for me but don't want to become a stim junkie.
Also..sleep deprivation also works for me but obviously not a good solution.

First I'll preface by saying I seem to have a very high tolerance for supplements as I have tried many different ones in the past. I'm taking the Triple Strength Curcumin from Vitamin Shoppe. Each cap is 95% curcumin..900 mg along with 5mg of bioperine. I started taking 2 per day..no real effect. Upped it to 3..got more of an effect. Upped it to 4 per day and got even more of an effect..but I feel like I need to push it more. Is it even safe for me to take 3 per day let alone 4 or even more if I want to push it? If not, can anyone suggest anything else I can throw into the mix without going too high on the curcumin?

I've tried Resveratrol Sustain Alpha LV before and actually got a good response from that but then started getting the achilles heel pain that I understand others have gotten. If I needed to, is taking Resveratrol in combination with Curcumin ok to take together? Maybe by combining them and keeping the Resv dosage lower I can possibly avoid the achilles heel pain.

I'll also let you know that Licorice is a help for me as well. I understand you have to cycle it, but I was more afraid of taking it more for the long term because of it's estrogenic effects. Are any of these 3 safe to take in combination or can anyone suggest anything else I can try? Just to let you know..if you suggest something I've probably tried it already but give it a go anyway LOL.

Curcumin's effects on serotonin are stronger than it's effect on DA/NE, so you might be getting more of a typical antidepressant effect from it. Coffee is probably a stronger dopaminergic.

About 2000mg daily should be fine, beyond that dose and it might start to get cytotoxic, which is great if you have cancer, but probably not so great in the long run otherwise.

I see no reason why you can't combine those supplements.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
hi Heaps

I have tried both DLPA and Tyrosine before including the acetyl. Seemed to initially help but didn't take long for the effects to wear off. I may be wrong but I think I remember reading one of adreno's post that he either had the same experience with that and/or knows tolerance can build up rapidly using the amino precursers. I'm glad to hear it works for you though.

hi Gavman

When I stress I don't seem to get much of an adrenaline response at all. As far as the serotonin issue I don't believe that is a big issue for me. I don't have the high anxiety typical of MDD and I rarely even get anxiety. I did have my first bout of MDD many years ago but now I get bouts of the atypical version.. Lack of motivation and desire..procrastination, etc. and I'm thinking that is more of a low DA/NE issue. I did read somewhere where the atypical variety is more of an issue with DA/NE than it is with serotonin. I've tried both versions of SJW..Kira and Perika..and even though Perika seemed to help a bit more than Kira...both I gave a long enough trial and that just wasn't doing it for me. Since sleep deprivation helps me, does that let me know that it's more low DA and low NE going on with me..or is that more of my cortisol being too low and the sleep deprivation raises it and hence me feeling better or could it be both..a combination of low DA and NE and low cortisol?

hi adreno

So I'm already taking about twice as high of a dose on the curcumin than you say at 2000 mg's. I didn't know curcumin effected serotonin more. Maybe I'll cut back the curcumin and add in some Resv. Yes I do better on coffee, but I have tried to cut back some because I've heard in the long run it can make depression worse? I'd drink some stronger coffee if I knew it wouldn't make me worse going forward.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
I also have issues with tendons and most antioxidants make it worse.
Not Resveratrol though, which instead helps me. However, I don't take an isolated Resveratrol product like you, but Japanese Knotweed which has Resveratrol in it. That may be an option for your achilles.
I don;t have experience with Curcumin as it also affects my tendons so I can;t take it. I read an article where the dosage for cancer is up to 9-12 grams daily of curcumin extract.
Cat's claw is also an effective antidepressant. Eleuthero (Siberian Ginseng) is a MAOI inhibitor and also an immune modulator but this one also I can't take as it makes me too hyper.
I used licorice for a couple of years and it certainly had some estrogenic effects but the main one for me was that it affected my sodium and potassium levels, which have returned to normal after about four months off it.

All the best.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/16/antioxidant-resveratrol-on-cancer.aspx

hi xrunner

I have tried Siberian Ginseng before but never tried Cat's Claw. I'll have to read up more on it. Do you know of any drawbacks in taking it?
 

xrunner

Senior Member
Messages
843
Location
Surrey
Hi Rand,

There are lots of studies on cat's claw mostly looking at immune modulatory effects. The main side effect I'm aware of is gastrointestinal upset at relatively higher dosages. It's best to start low and gradually ramp up. This relates to Cat's claw whole herb. Samento is a refined form of cat's claw and it may be better as antimicrobial but it doesn't have the same anti-inflammatory and mood enhancing effects of the whole herb. Not on me anyhow, they seem quite different in their actions as far as I can tell.
I don't get depressed but I found the herb makes me feel elated somehow and nothing seems to bother me.
The main side effect I have experienced is however tendon inflammation but at dosages indicated for Lyme which are relatively high. Therefore I stick to a relatively low dosage but I get the anti-inflammatory effects. Also the quality of the herb is important.
I use it on and off during mercury chelating rounds to decrease inflammation in conjunction with Knotweed/resveratrol. I found they complement very well in reducing inflammation.

A comprehensive database of scientific studies on herbs in general is http://www.napralert.org/
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
Hi Rand,

There are lots of studies on cat's claw mostly looking at immune modulatory effects. The main side effect I'm aware of is gastrointestinal upset at relatively higher dosages. It's best to start low and gradually ramp up. This relates to Cat's claw whole herb. Samento is a refined form of cat's claw and it may be better as antimicrobial but it doesn't have the same anti-inflammatory and mood enhancing effects of the whole herb. Not on me anyhow, they seem quite different in their actions as far as I can tell.
I don't get depressed but I found the herb makes me feel elated somehow and nothing seems to bother me.
The main side effect I have experienced is however tendon inflammation but at dosages indicated for Lyme which are relatively high. Therefore I stick to a relatively low dosage but I get the anti-inflammatory effects. Also the quality of the herb is important.
I use it on and off during mercury chelating rounds to decrease inflammation in conjunction with Knotweed/resveratrol. I found they complement very well in reducing inflammation.

A comprehensive database of scientific studies on herbs in general is http://www.napralert.org/

hi xrunner

I noticed you say you don't get depressed, but did you have depression type symptoms before you started Cats Claw, and if so, did you have anxiety from it? I did some reading on Cats Claw and I noticed it can have some sedative propertiies. That is definitely a no for me. Sedative type supps make my depression worse. Stimulants work better for me. Many years ago <when I had health insurance> , I was diagnosed as having borderline ADD and was given Ritalin. He felt it could help my depression. It did, it helped it a lot. Unfortunately I became tolerant to it, and needed to continually up my dose. I concluded that was not a long term option for me.

With that said, I may give the Japanese Knotweed a go. Can you recommend any particular brand? Do you take a powder or capsule, or is it a tea?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Rand, I haven't found a supplement that reliably raises dopamine in the long term. If you haven't already tried it, I would give bupropion a go. It might be just the ticket for your atypical depression.
 

xrunner

Senior Member
Messages
843
Location
Surrey
No, I never got really depressed. It was mainly during periods of intense flu-like symptoms that my mind would automatically switch into negative thinking. I did a lot of CBT and mindfulness years ago but that didn't help a bit with my symptoms (antidepressants which I tried briefly neither). They seemed to be triggered by inflammation thrown out by the immune system and override any psychological factor.
I wouldn't say it has sedative properties (like Ashwagandha for e.g.), not on me anyhow. Nor gave me any anxiety. I found it neutral.
I think it depends. If someone's depression is ultimately caused by immune inflammation, than cat's claw may be helpful.

For the Knotweed, I use the Paradise Herbs capsules but can't take more than two a day (I get too much of a testosterone-effect otherwise). That has worked well for me. However, as soon as I finish my supplies, I'll switch to a water decoction/tea which is the form used in antiviral studies.

I use this site for info on quality sources and dosages for these herbs
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herb-source-list/
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,934
Location
Albuquerque
Rand, I haven't found a supplement that reliably raises dopamine in the long term. If you haven't already tried it, I would give bupropion a go. It might be just the ticket for your atypical depression.

I took this at half the lowest dose for migraines, and it was effective. I think with this med, (as most) it is very important to get the dose right for you. Starting with a very low dose and working up is a good may to access this. You can cut the non-time release generic.

Sushi
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
Rand, I haven't found a supplement that reliably raises dopamine in the long term. If you haven't already tried it, I would give bupropion a go. It might be just the ticket for your atypical depression.

hi adreno.

Yes I have seriously thought about bupropion. Other than sleep deprivation which "totally" lifted my depression <after about 4 nights of maybe only averaging 1 to 1.5 hours of sleep per night>, bupropion was one of only a couple..including Ritalin, that helped me out of many I tried when I "had" health insurance LOL. I'm assuming if and when I decide to give it a go, I can order this online from somewhere without a prescription? At some point I may have to bite the bullett and fork out more cash to try it again. I'm trying to find some answers that could be at the root of my problems like we all are on here. Thank you for your suggestion adreno. I highly value your opinions. You are very knowlegeable about a wide span of topics on here.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
No, I never got really depressed. It was mainly during periods of intense flu-like symptoms that my mind would automatically switch into negative thinking. I did a lot of CBT and mindfulness years ago but that didn't help a bit with my symptoms (antidepressants which I tried briefly neither). They seemed to be triggered by inflammation thrown out by the immune system and override any psychological factor.
I wouldn't say it has sedative properties (like Ashwagandha for e.g.), not on me anyhow. Nor gave me any anxiety. I found it neutral.
I think it depends. If someone's depression is ultimately caused by immune inflammation, than cat's claw may be helpful.

For the Knotweed, I use the Paradise Herbs capsules but can't take more than two a day (I get too much of a testosterone-effect otherwise). That has worked well for me. However, as soon as I finish my supplies, I'll switch to a water decoction/tea which is the form used in antiviral studies.

I use this site for info on quality sources and dosages for these herbs
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herb-source-list/

hi xrunner

Thanks for the info. I'll check out the link you posted.
 

Gavman

Senior Member
Messages
316
Location
Sydney
hi Heaps

I have tried both DLPA and Tyrosine before including the acetyl. Seemed to initially help but didn't take long for the effects to wear off. I may be wrong but I think I remember reading one of adreno's post that he either had the same experience with that and/or knows tolerance can build up rapidly using the amino precursers. I'm glad to hear it works for you though.

hi Gavman

When I stress I don't seem to get much of an adrenaline response at all. As far as the serotonin issue I don't believe that is a big issue for me. I don't have the high anxiety typical of MDD and I rarely even get anxiety. I did have my first bout of MDD many years ago but now I get bouts of the atypical version.. Lack of motivation and desire..procrastination, etc. and I'm thinking that is more of a low DA/NE issue. I did read somewhere where the atypical variety is more of an issue with DA/NE than it is with serotonin. I've tried both versions of SJW..Kira and Perika..and even though Perika seemed to help a bit more than Kira...both I gave a long enough trial and that just wasn't doing it for me. Since sleep deprivation helps me, does that let me know that it's more low DA and low NE going on with me..or is that more of my cortisol being too low and the sleep deprivation raises it and hence me feeling better or could it be both..a combination of low DA and NE and low cortisol?

Interesting, Rand. - I'm an adrenaline junkie and anxious. I have found from my research on the pfeiffer institute style of overmethylation though that its not necessary a lack of dopamine or adrenaline, but the release of them that is too limited. This would cause the same symptoms, yet adding SSRIs or more neurochemicals to these individuals tends to result in crazy/suicidal behavior.

This seems to happen in overly depressed people (reminds me of Charlie Sheen who can do immensely adrenaline pumping things yet seems calm in general) I do believe the answer to this kind of thing lies in the methylation cycle. Not sure how cortisol factors into this either. Its kind of symptomatic rather than causal from what i can gather.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
hi Gavman

Appreciate your reply. I found this study on the effect of sleep deprivation on depression and cortisol levels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15285966

I know it concluded that is has a short term clinical effect and I have first hand experience of this because when I fell back into my normal sleeping patterns my depression returned. A few more details would help as far as what I did prior to getting hardly any sleep at all for 4 straight nights and a bit more backgound on my history. I apologize in advance if this gets a tad lengthy. Keep in mind, this time period was already beyond my first experience with typical MDD. Back then I was highly anxious,couldn't sleep, couldn't eat much, and lost weight obviously. I was literally a basket case for about 4 years after I came down with MDD. on top of that I had a full time job as a salesman trying to put on a happy face for my customers. Needless to say this was the toughest 4 years of my life. Took the more appropriate AD's for my condition at the time and although a bunch of them did not help me, a couple did, but even the couple that did..it did not lift my depression like sleep deprivation did much later. The much later I knew it was a different kind of depression..I did not have anxiety, I ate well, I slept enough..but I was showing signs more of low DA...lack of desire and motivation..procrastination, and still fatique...and for anyone who has had depression...you know something just doesn't feel right in your head...it's like feeling a physical emptiness in your head...you know something isn't right and something is out of balance. So push forward to my next paragraph...I knew when I first started taking the DLPA I might be on to something because I could start feel things happening in my head.

This was around the time when I first started taking DLPA..along with P5P and vitamin C...it obviously was starting to do something for me...the more I took of it, the more my brain felt stimulated which was what apparently what I needed. So the more I got "wired" the more I couldn't sleep. So finally I guess to the point of hardly getting any sleep at all for 4 straight nights.. it finally kicked in. My depression "lited". It wasn't a buzz high..I felt "normal" again..and no doubt from feeling normal again my endorphins kicked in making me feel even better. Well..not so fast..once my body had to crash from lack of sleep...I reverted back to my baseline mood.. I tried to continue with the DLPA thinking I could get the same therapeutic response but I couldn't. I guess my body said you need more sleep. So I have gone the route of DLPA,,trying Tyrosine, and even Acetyl - Tyrosine to no avail. Even to this day when I get less sleep my depression is "not as bad" but still not good at all. Mind you...today I am not the basket case I was those years of MDD...but I'm still not right..I suffer fatigue as well which is what originally brought me to this forum..thinking there just might be something else going on with me at the root cause. I also knew there had to be something else going on me with me..because even though I do get PEM.....the last time I was at the gym trying to push myself only to do an extra 10 minutes of cardio.....OOPS....bad idea. I crashed and couldn't even have enough desire nor energy to get back in the gym for about a week and a half later.

Even though I do not have any health insurance right now...to be honest with you, why go see one when all they have told me in the past is there is nothing wrong with me <albeit them maybe running a test figuring out I am low cortisol but I already know I am..verified from the 24 hour saliva cortisol test I took awhile back which is probably more accurate then their stinkin test anyway> and all I need is another AD. Well yeah...ok Mr. Bozo Doctor who thinks you are always 100% right....maybe so but maybe not either. Sorry....I have grown to distrust doctors...I don't mean to label them all as bad..but many sure do have a G** Complex as I am sure a lot of you can relate to. One doctor a long time ago did put me on Cortef thinking it would help. Well.....it didn't and I can't remember how long I was on it but I got off it at some point. When I started reading what Dufresne was saying about what Cheney was saying about certain supps being bad...maybe that would apply to me....I don't know...but I do know that Cortef in the past has not helped me nor has any adrenal glandular or extract helped me. Maybe that intial round of Cortef screwed me up more going forward and it might be worth a shot to try those brain and heart glandulars.

Ok....thanks for listening and sorry about the length of the post.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
I'd also like to add that taking cold showers helps me feel better..albeit only temporarily until I'm back to baseline. From what I've read, apparently the cold releases NE. On the flip side, I can't even take a hot bath, or even a warm to hot shower anymore. I makes me feel worse temporarily until I return to baseline.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
I guess I'm on a roll here and I apologize for not thinking of all these things to include in one post. This was many years ago, but I even went to see one of those environmental medicine docs looking for some help. Back then I did have health insurance, but this guy wasn't covered by my insurance. I saw him anyway because at the time I was making a pretty decent living with my job...so I figure I'll try this type of doc and give it a shot. Well he had me on so many different types of natural supps my head was spinning <not literally> from looking at them all lined up on my counter. Exageration here but you get my point. This was actually back in the time where DHEA was starting to be hyped and you had to get a script for it. DHEA was one of the ones he put me on and countless others. Well, none of what he tried helped me either. I finally gave up on him because I was spending too much money thru him on these supps and not getting anywhere..although I'm sure he loved it though..me and his other patiients must have been contributing to his kids college education fund. He is just another doc along the way who helped contribute to my lack of trust for doctors. I even had one psychiatrist doc I was seeing for AD's refer me to also talk to a psychologist. What a friggen waste of time and effort that was. I swear I think all these doctors can get rich on referals alone..pinballing their patients back and forth to their other buddies in other fields of practice
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
No, I never got really depressed. It was mainly during periods of intense flu-like symptoms that my mind would automatically switch into negative thinking. I did a lot of CBT and mindfulness years ago but that didn't help a bit with my symptoms (antidepressants which I tried briefly neither). They seemed to be triggered by inflammation thrown out by the immune system and override any psychological factor.
I wouldn't say it has sedative properties (like Ashwagandha for e.g.), not on me anyhow. Nor gave me any anxiety. I found it neutral.
I think it depends. If someone's depression is ultimately caused by immune inflammation, than cat's claw may be helpful.

For the Knotweed, I use the Paradise Herbs capsules but can't take more than two a day (I get too much of a testosterone-effect otherwise). That has worked well for me. However, as soon as I finish my supplies, I'll switch to a water decoction/tea which is the form used in antiviral studies.

I use this site for info on quality sources and dosages for these herbs
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herb-source-list/

hi xrunner

I wanted to ask you a question because yesterday was my first dose of the Japanese Knotweed from Green Dragon Botanicals 450mg per cap. I took one cap at dinnertime. When you take your Knotweed do you find you get less sleep if you take it too late in the day or at dinnertime? I realize your body chemistry may be different than mine, but it must have effected me in getting less sleep because I took it late in the day and I can't find any other determining factors that could have possibly made me sleep less. I'm surprised I'd have that much of a reaction from just one cap, and if that is what effected my sleep, this might be a good brand.

Now I know I shouldn't take it too late in the day but atleast for now..this might work well for me combining it with the Curcumin. Time will tell.
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,079
Location
australia (brisbane)
hi Heaps

I have tried both DLPA and Tyrosine before including the acetyl. Seemed to initially help but didn't take long for the effects to wear off. I may be wrong but I think I remember reading one of adreno's post that he either had the same experience with that and/or knows tolerance can build up rapidly using the amino precursers. I'm glad to hear it works for you though.

hi Gavman

When I stress I don't seem to get much of an adrenaline response at all. As far as the serotonin issue I don't believe that is a big issue for me. I don't have the high anxiety typical of MDD and I rarely even get anxiety. I did have my first bout of MDD many years ago but now I get bouts of the atypical version.. Lack of motivation and desire..procrastination, etc. and I'm thinking that is more of a low DA/NE issue. I did read somewhere where the atypical variety is more of an issue with DA/NE than it is with serotonin. I've tried both versions of SJW..Kira and Perika..and even though Perika seemed to help a bit more than Kira...both I gave a long enough trial and that just wasn't doing it for me. Since sleep deprivation helps me, does that let me know that it's more low DA and low NE going on with me..or is that more of my cortisol being too low and the sleep deprivation raises it and hence me feeling better or could it be both..a combination of low DA and NE and low cortisol?

hi adreno

So I'm already taking about twice as high of a dose on the curcumin than you say at 2000 mg's. I didn't know curcumin effected serotonin more. Maybe I'll cut back the curcumin and add in some Resv. Yes I do better on coffee, but I have tried to cut back some because I've heard in the long run it can make depression worse? I'd drink some stronger coffee if I knew it wouldn't make me worse going forward.

I think tolerance builds to anything, i think if an amino acid precursor stops working then just stop it for a week or 2, maybe longer if needed and then use again. I also think just using these things occassionally helps as well. I also think making sure you have good adrenal hormones like dhea, good thyroid etc is important to getting neurotransmitter levels right. Increasing neurotransmitters with low hormones might be like whipping a dead horse. Pregnenolone can also help with different neurotransmitters but these adrenal hormones can be tricky to adjust in cfs/me people and dosages alot lower then is normally recommended should be used. certain herbs can be useful but i think sometimes these also can be like whipping a dead horse, need to have good dhea, cortisol etc levels i think if using these.

cheers!!!