Cumin (Cuminum cyminum): Possible PEM Blocker

[Mary]

Science starts with observation, so you have to pay attention.

 

[Wishful]

I think it's important to occasionally test treatments that were working, to be sure that they're still working. I recently didn't take my scheduled (every 21 days) iodine boost, and the expected increase in symptom severity didn't occur. Two weeks past that point (still not worse), I took some iodine, and didn't notice any difference. I think that issue (worsening symptoms) has been effectively cured.

The interesting thing is, it's quite possible that that problem went away at the same time my PEM had been cured (I assume by cumin). I can't think of any way to prove it, but it does suggest a possible link. Unfortunately, I don't know why either of those two treatments worked, so it's hard to even guess why they might be linked.

The bad news is that I no longer have any treatments working reliably for ME. The good news (for me) is that it's because the problems they were treating no longer exist. The good news for everyone else is that it shows that it is at least possible to make some progress in reducing ME's effects.

 

[Mimicry]

Inspired by this thread I’ve taken cumin (first tea with 3 tsp of cumin last sunday, then 2 tsp whole seeds taken with water on tuesday) twice now this week, and haven’t experienced much PEM even though I have been doing a lot of stuff. I went shopping both yesterday and day before that and have also been cleaning after my rabbits, but so far I haven’t had the usual horribleness of PEM. There’s a little soreness in my muscles and some brain fog but no dizziness, weakness, dehydrated feeling or allergy symptoms that usually flare up during PEM. I actually watched two episodes of Sherlock with my spouse today and had the energy to knit at the same time, it’s been a while since I’ve been able to knit for almost three hours straight Intriguing! I will keep experimenting with cumin and report how it goes!

 

[Wishful]

Cumin didn't eliminate my brainfog, and it didn't prevent normal muscle soreness. It did prevent the major increase in my ME symptoms that normally flared up 24 hrs after strenuous activity. I spent several hours chainsawing a big tree, and expected to spend the next day feeling too lousy to do anything. Having only minor muscle soreness was simply astonishing, which made me eager to figure out how to do that again. Luckily it did turn out to be repeatable.

Please do report if it keeps working for you, or even if it doesn't. If it does work for more than just me, maybe someone will research it properly and figure out how to make it work for more people.

 

[Jyoti]

I've tried cumin powder when well into the beginning of PEM. And it helps. I am quite sure, so thank you, @Wishful! I am finding that icing my neck and putting a teaspoon or so of cumin under my lip to let the essential oil absorb that way really cuts the impact and length of PEM by at least 30%. Which as we all know, is a lot!

 

[Wishful]

@Jyoti, have you tried taking cumin before doing something you expect PEM from? It removed my PEM if I took it after it started, but I preferred having the PEM not start at all.

I took mine sublingually too, since experimentation proved that it worked that way even if I didn't swallow the powder. I think cuminaldehyde was doing its work in my brain.

 

[Jyoti]

I read that in one of your earliest posts in threads, @Learner1. i have yet to have that much foresight, but i am going to try to remember it before I take on a project. This has been great info for me!

 

[Learner1]

I read that in one of your earliest posts in threads, @Learner1. i have yet to have that much foresight, but i am going to try to remember it before I take on a project. This has been great info for me!

Not sure what I said, but good luck!

 

[Jyoti]

Not sure what I said, but good luck!

Brain fog. Overload. Sorry. My mistaken attribution. Thanks, though, for the good luck. I will take it!

 

[pattismith]

One study in 2019 found

Atypical Nitrogen-Containing Flavonoid in the Fruits of Cumin (Cuminum cyminum L.) with Anti-inflammatory Activity

• Naixin Kan

Abstract

The dried seeds of Cuminum cyminum L. have been traditionally used as food and medicine. To explore its chemical composition and anti-inflammatory activity, four new compounds (1–4) along with five known compounds (5–9) were isolated from the seeds in the present study.
:::::::::

Compound 2, an atypical nitrogen-containing flavonoid, exhibited the most active inhibitory effect on nitride oxide, with IC50 of 5.25 μM in the lipopolysaccharide-stimulated RAW264.7 cell assay.

Compound 2 was found to suppress the expression levels of inducible nitric oxide synthase and cyclooxygenase-2.

Furthermore, it was revealed that both nuclear factor κB and mitogen-activated protein kinase were involved in the anti-inflammatory process of compound 2.

 

[gbells]

Not meaning to stir up major excitement, but something does seem to be blocking or reducing my PEM. Further testing on myself might take weeks, and if it does work for other people, they'd probably be annoyed that I delayed so long.

I had to buck some firewood, and doing even a few cuts by handsaw is enough to trigger PEM. Instead I fired up the chainsaw, bucked a lot of wood (couple of hours), and accept that I'd have serious PEM the next day. After all, my muscles were really sore after that. No PEM the next day. I checked my diary to see what might have blocked the PEM. The day before I had pancakes made with some ground cumin seed.

When I first tried a significant amount of cumin, 2.5 years into my mysterious medical disorder, it made me feel completely healthy again. After a few weeks of taking cumin seed daily, I realized that somewhere along the way it had stopped working. I try it again a couple of times a year, just in case it decides to start working again, but no luck. What I think is happening is that it doesn't reduce the baseline symptoms...but it does block PEM. I just didn't realize it because it's harder to notice PEM that doesn't occur. The chainsawing session with majorly sore muscles was simply too astounding to not notice. I did more serious chainsawing yesterday (fourth day after cumin) and again there's no significant PEM (at least not yet!).

The problem is that testing PEM reduction is difficult, since we never know for sure whether PEM will occur or how strong it will be. I can't be totally sure yet that the blocking was due to cumin seed. I have to wait until PEM occurs reliably again, and repeat the experiment several times, with different physical activities. I did check a few months back in my diary, and found two times I'd used cumin, and I managed to do somewhat unusually strenous physical activities the following day (changed truck wheels, dug soil), without reporting serious PEM the next day. Not proof, but encouraging.

Since cumin seed is readily available and a very safe food, I thought I'd post this and see if anyone else is interested in testing it themselves and reporting back here. I used a couple of teaspoons worth of cumin seed in the pancakes. (Yes, I know it's not the greatest taste, but it was for testing to see if the improvement it once gave might return.) When I first tried it, I used a teaspoon full, which was adequate. I didn't bother to test for the minimal amount required. I don't know how quickly ground cumin loses potency, so if you try the experiment with ground cumin so old that you don't know which decade it's from, failure may not prove anything.

When I first tried it, I followed up by finding a list of the active compounds in cumin seed and testing other herbs that contained some of them. I'd pretty much narrowed it down to cuminaldehyde (4-isopropylbenzaldehyde). Perilla is another herb with cuminaldehyde (or at least a version of it), but the effect of cumin wore off before I was able to obtain any perilla, so I don't know if it is or isn't as effective.

Maybe cumin only works for me, so don't buy vast quantities expecting a miracle. However,since many of you already have it in your kitchen, and you are going to do activities that you expect will trigger PEM, taking a teaspoon of cumin the day before--and paying attention to whether your PEM symptoms are different from expectations--should be a simple, safe experiment. Maybe it will make someone's life a little less awful.


As I'm finishing this up, I noticed that my temperature is up .4C, so maybe yesterday's activity is causing PEM. It didn't rise this way yesterday, so maybe cumin only works for 24 hrs or so.


Hoping that this potential PEM blocker isn't a false hope...

I did some research on black cumin vs. curcumin. Black cumin's active ingredient is thymoquinone. Both BC and curcumin lower inflammation caused by elevated Nf-kb from chronic viruses (EBV).(1)(2) BC has a bad side effect of lowering blood sugar and is contraindicated in diabetics. BC also promotes apoptosis in cancer cells by triggering the STAT3 pathway and p53 for viral infections.(3)(4) For ME patients I prefer broccoli extract to trigger p53 apoptosis for HHV6 and EBV viruses since it doesn't affect blood sugar. BC is effective for high nf-kb inflammation. I don't see any additional benefits from cumin for ME patients although it could be a substitute for the broccoli extract if someone is allergic (though I haven't tested it). I don't like the fact that BC acts as an antioxidant which would reduce ME apoptosis. BC might be helpful to increase cancer apoptosis if the tumor blocks STAT3.

 

[pattismith]

I did some research on cumin vs. curcumin. Cumin's active ingredient is thymoquinone. Both cumin and curcumin lower inflammation caused by elevated Nf-kb from chronic viruses (EBV).(1)(2) Cumin has a bad side effect of lowering blood sugar and is contraindicated in diabetics. Cumin also promotes apoptosis in cancer cells by triggering the STAT3 pathway and p53 for viral infections.(3)(4) For ME patients I prefer broccoli extract to trigger p53 apoptosis for HHV6 and EBV viruses since it doesn't affect blood sugar. Curcumin is effective for high nf-kb inflammation. I don't see any additional benefits from cumin for ME patients although it could be a substitute for the broccoli extract if someone is allergic (though I haven't tested it). I don't like the fact that cumin acts as an antioxidant which would reduce ME apoptosis. Cumin might be helpful to increase cancer apoptosis if the tumor blocks STAT3.

you are mixing Nigella Sativa (black cumin whose main active ingredient is Thymoquinone), with Cuminum Cyminum (cumin).

 

[Wishful]

I don't see any additional benefits from cumin for ME patients

The problem with that statement is the unspoken "theoretical or logical" part. Thymoquinone might logically have an effect on one aspect based on one theory for ME, but since we don't have a proven theory for ME, it's quite likely that any particular theoretical treatment is not going to work as expected. Likewise, a chemical with no present theoretical basis for working might be a very effective treatment. I don't know why cuminaldehyde blocked my PEM, and not in a dose-dependent manner. I suspect its mechanism simply hasn't been studied. The body, and especially the brain, is still largely mysterious.

My preference is to simply try things and see whether they have an effect. Hopefully not one of these:

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Since cumin seed is readily available and a very safe food, I thought I'd post this and see if anyone else is interested in testing it themselves and reporting back here

Thought I would try...experimenting with this cumin.

Can you clarify? Are you still using cumin seed and if so, is it whole and raw?

I have a serious aversion to cumin which developed. This is an ME thing that happens to me, somehow related to some neurological issues like altered smell and taste. I can't stand it any longer and if its in food I can hardly eat it.

Trying to figure out a form I could try in which I don't smell or taste actual cumin.

 

[Wishful]

Can you clarify? Are you still using cumin seed and if so, is it whole and raw?

I'm no longer using it, because I'm still not getting PEM from physical exertion. I don't have an aversion to the taste, but it's not something I actively like either, so it's just sitting there in case I want to experiment or make curry. It's just no-name ground cumin, although raw seeds worked just as well, and using it in cooking or baking didn't deactivate it.

For avoiding taste, put it in gelcaps? Swallow a tsp worth quickly and rinse well? Hide it with something overpowering? I never had the need to experiment with cumin suppositories...

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I never had the need to experiment with cumin suppositories...

Not a bad idea!

It seems smells get-parked in my sinus and become a type of Now I Hate That...odor. I did Amy's frozen entrees...as a form of Jenny Craig, some decade ago- and they put cumin in everything and finally, I overdosed.

Its actually not used in real Mexican food...down where I visit. No, Americans use it. My deli put cumin into the Shepards pie (no, no this is British food).

 

[Rufous McKinney]

For avoiding taste, put it in gelcaps

Something I've done in the past...a dry powder herb...can be put into cigarette papers, swallow quickly.

Used to take goldenseal that way.

 

[gbells]

you are mixing Nigella Sativa (black cumin whose main active ingredient is Thymoquinone), with Cuminum Cyminum (cumin).

Thanks for the heads up.

So far the only thing I'm finding are some terpenes in cumin and a general antimicrobial effect which is why it has been used for centuries as a spice. No reference in the medical literature of any other therapeutic effects.

 

[Wishful]

No reference in the medical literature of any other therapeutic effects.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23035918/

"Cumin contains volatile oil (3-4%), cuminaldehyde, the major active principle, which is present to an extent of 45-50%. ... Cuminaldehyde is an important phytochemical and possesses many health benefits. Alcohol and water extract of cumin are reported to possess many nutraceutical properties like antiallergic, antioxidant, anti-platelet aggregation, and hypoglycemic."

http://www.bmrat.org/index.php/BMRAT/article/view/634 has more details.

I'm confident that it was the cuminaldehyde that worked for me, because I tried other herbs with some of its other components, and they had no effect.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Just started giving this a go 1 teaspoon of cumin. Is there a way to cancel out the nausea and diarrhea? I don't tolerate fruit juice that well either (had a fruit allergy since I was about 16!) but maybe people have found a way to make it easier on the stomach.

Interestingly it has increased my heart rate and given me an energy boost (a small one). This normally bodes well for PEM. But the diarrhea and stomach upset would definitely be enough to put me off, unless this passes with acclimatization? @Wishful

Thank you,