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Cumin (Cuminum cyminum): Possible PEM Blocker

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,635
Location
Alberta
If you don't experiment, you don't learn anything new. This morning I noticed several nice big pumpkin blossoms, so I ate several, just as an experiment. There's always the chance that it's an effective treatment but that I consumed just a little bit too little to show a benefit, but there's always that tiny chance that it will help.

... and maybe due to ME weirdness, I'll turn orange. :D
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,635
Location
Alberta
I stopped cumin for a day. Didn't notice a worsening.

For me, a dose lasted 3 days. It was fully effective for the whole 3 days. It took experimentation to figure out the effective duration.

When I find a treatment, I worry that overdoing it might make it stop working, so I try to find the lowest effective dosage and maximum time between doses. Of course, we all respond differently to things, so follow your preferred methods.
 
Messages
600
If you can eat Cumin and be PEM free for 3 days, doesnt that indicate that ME/CFS does not come from a metabolic trap. Unless Cumin gets you out of the trap for 3 days and then your back in, doesnt sound plausible imo. Just a thought for the pro's to consider.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,635
Location
Alberta
If you can eat Cumin and be PEM free for 3 days, doesnt that indicate that ME/CFS does not come from a metabolic trap.

That's one reason why I've never considered the TRP trap to be a correct hypothesis. Cumin seemed to be working on brain cells. A quick checked showed a new article showing that cuminaldehyde (CA) alters gene expression in brain cells: "Moreover, CA treatment up-regulated the gene expression of Bdnf, Icam and ApoE, while it down-regulated the gene expression of IL-6."

Another: "Conclusion It was attained magnificently that cuminaldehyde exerts antinociceptive and antineuropathic effects through the involvement of opioid receptors, L-arginine/NO/cGMP pathway, and anti-inflammatory function."

Another: "Real-time PCR tests showed that CuEO significantly inhibited the mRNA expressions of inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), cyclooxygenase (COX-2), interleukin- (IL-) 1, and IL-6. Moreover, western blotting analysis revealed that CuEO blocked LPS-induced transcriptional activation of nuclear factor-kappa B (NF-κB) and inhibited the phosphorylation of extracellular signal regulated kinase (ERK) and c-Jun N-terminal kinase (JNK)."

Cuminaldehyde definitely affects brain cells. Which mechanism blocked my PEM? It might be one of those listed above, or it might be a mechanism not yet studied.
 

GlassCannonLife

Senior Member
Messages
819
That's one reason why I've never considered the TRP trap to be a correct hypothesis. Cumin seemed to be working on brain cells. A quick checked showed a new article showing that cuminaldehyde (CA) alters gene expression in brain cells: "Moreover, CA treatment up-regulated the gene expression of Bdnf, Icam and ApoE, while it down-regulated the gene expression of IL-6."

Another: "Conclusion It was attained magnificently that cuminaldehyde exerts antinociceptive and antineuropathic effects through the involvement of opioid receptors, L-arginine/NO/cGMP pathway, and anti-inflammatory function."

Another: "Real-time PCR tests showed that CuEO significantly inhibited the mRNA expressions of inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), cyclooxygenase (COX-2), interleukin- (IL-) 1, and IL-6. Moreover, western blotting analysis revealed that CuEO blocked LPS-induced transcriptional activation of nuclear factor-kappa B (NF-κB) and inhibited the phosphorylation of extracellular signal regulated kinase (ERK) and c-Jun N-terminal kinase (JNK)."

Cuminaldehyde definitely affects brain cells. Which mechanism blocked my PEM? It might be one of those listed above, or it might be a mechanism not yet studied.

Hm interesting, I wonder if it's IL-6 modulation. I've read it is quite intimately involved in "sickness behaviour" and I for one have it chronically elevated.
 

GlassCannonLife

Senior Member
Messages
819
@Wishful so I finally bought a bag of cumin and tried this out over a number of separate days in the last few weeks.

I definitely have a reasonably strong response to it. I can go from feeling very unstable and bad to noticeably more stable and significantly better (still bad but I'm a bit flared up still atm), within 15-20 min of having some cumin..

It's extremely bizarre to experience, and reminds me of how I'd respond to tiny amounts of succinate. That gave me bad rebound PEM though, and I can't quite tell what the story is with the cumin.

Did you ever have any issues with it? I find the effect of a single dose (approx teaspoon mixed in a little water) lasts around 3-4 h and then wears off and I get back to pretty much as bad as I was feeling before it.

Is the most we understand about this still the post you made above in November?

Could it be a gene expression alteration when it is working within such a short time frame? I wouldn't think that you'd have substantial changes in downstream ie cytokine etc levels if you need to digest it, start affecting gene expression, then have a resultant change in proteins being expressed etc, right? Or can that happen that quickly..? I will have to look into that unless you or someone else have already checked.

I'm tempted to just take it multiple times throughout the day but I'm also worried about causing rebound effects, or having it be working as a stimulant or masking my symptoms rather than helping things along.. Any recommendations you have regarding this would be great to hear!
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
I'm tempted to just take it multiple times throughout the day but I'm also worried about causing rebound effects, or having it be working as a stimulant or masking my symptoms rather than helping things along.. Any recommendations you have regarding this would be great to hear!

I've been taking cumin like this for a long time. I have experienced absolutely zero negative effects from it. Which is crazy, because anything that makes me feel better always comes with a bad snag.

The only downside is the fact that you return to how you were before after a couple of hours. So, I was making capsules - but 100 capsules would last less than a week when I'm particularly bad (usually 4 or 5 capsules for a dose). This got tiresome. So I bought cumin extract and a single drop of this does the same job as 4 or 5 capsules. It's a much better experience using the extract. So much easier. Just a single drop in a capsule.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,635
Location
Alberta
Did you ever have any issues with it?

No, I never had any negative experiences with cumin. It just did its job reliably. Good cumin! Well done! <pet, pet> :)

within 15-20 min of having some cumin..

I think that's along the lines of what I experienced when I forgot to take it, got PEM, and then took the cumin. For me a dose consistently lasted 3 days; I never had it last only a few hours. Individual variation I suppose.

Could it be a gene expression alteration when it is working within such a short time frame?

I still don't have a solid hypothesis for how it worked. Since it worked when absorbed sublingually and not swallowed, I'm reasonably convinced that its effect is on brain cells. This paper ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7880363/ ) does show that cuminaldehyde does affect gene expression in brain cells. Research has also found that it has other effects. I occasionally google 'cuminaldehyde' to look for new research, but I haven't yet found any obvious 'this is the answer'. I'm not enough of a biologist to have a good feel for how quickly the various body processes occur. I didn't try cumin in capsules, so I don't know whether having it bypass sublingual absorption would have added a delay.

I too worried about taking cumin--or anything else--too much too frequently. The first time I noticed cumin having an effect on me was before I even knew about ME. A tsp of cumin gave me temporary remission the first few times, but after a week or two I had to accept that it no longer had an effect. I did wonder if I had overdone it, but now it seems more likely that it's just ME's response to many (most?) treatments, and it would have lost effectiveness even if I'd used the bare minimum. I do try to find the minimum effective dosage for any treatment just to avoid possible downsides. For me, a level tsp every 3 days worked well, without problems.

All I can recommend is to try different amounts to see what is the minimum effective dosage for you, and how long it lasts. I suppose you can also experiment to see if there are any cofactors that might affect the dosage. Maybe it's better to take it with carbs, or oil, or rest or exercise. Consider it exploring uncharted waters. I explored, and found a true treasure. Most sail around not finding anything. A few got seasick (hating the taste). :yuck:

I wish you good luck in your explorations, and I hope you post your results.
 

GlassCannonLife

Senior Member
Messages
819
No, I never had any negative experiences with cumin. It just did its job reliably. Good cumin! Well done! <pet, pet> :)



I think that's along the lines of what I experienced when I forgot to take it, got PEM, and then took the cumin. For me a dose consistently lasted 3 days; I never had it last only a few hours. Individual variation I suppose.



I still don't have a solid hypothesis for how it worked. Since it worked when absorbed sublingually and not swallowed, I'm reasonably convinced that its effect is on brain cells. This paper ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7880363/ ) does show that cuminaldehyde does affect gene expression in brain cells. Research has also found that it has other effects. I occasionally google 'cuminaldehyde' to look for new research, but I haven't yet found any obvious 'this is the answer'. I'm not enough of a biologist to have a good feel for how quickly the various body processes occur. I didn't try cumin in capsules, so I don't know whether having it bypass sublingual absorption would have added a delay.

I too worried about taking cumin--or anything else--too much too frequently. The first time I noticed cumin having an effect on me was before I even knew about ME. A tsp of cumin gave me temporary remission the first few times, but after a week or two I had to accept that it no longer had an effect. I did wonder if I had overdone it, but now it seems more likely that it's just ME's response to many (most?) treatments, and it would have lost effectiveness even if I'd used the bare minimum. I do try to find the minimum effective dosage for any treatment just to avoid possible downsides. For me, a level tsp every 3 days worked well, without problems.

All I can recommend is to try different amounts to see what is the minimum effective dosage for you, and how long it lasts. I suppose you can also experiment to see if there are any cofactors that might affect the dosage. Maybe it's better to take it with carbs, or oil, or rest or exercise. Consider it exploring uncharted waters. I explored, and found a true treasure. Most sail around not finding anything. A few got seasick (hating the taste). :yuck:

I wish you good luck in your explorations, and I hope you post your results.

Thanks! Yeah I'll share my experience for sure. I really didn't expect it to do anything so it's quite an interesting experience haha.

I haven't tried sublingual, just swallowed the powder with water. I tried both fasted and during the middle of a meal and had the same effect so far.!
 

GlassCannonLife

Senior Member
Messages
819
I've been taking cumin like this for a long time. I have experienced absolutely zero negative effects from it. Which is crazy, because anything that makes me feel better always comes with a bad snag.

The only downside is the fact that you return to how you were before after a couple of hours. So, I was making capsules - but 100 capsules would last less than a week when I'm particularly bad (usually 4 or 5 capsules for a dose). This got tiresome. So I bought cumin extract and a single drop of this does the same job as 4 or 5 capsules. It's a much better experience using the extract. So much easier. Just a single drop in a capsule.

Wow, that's great. How long have you been using it? So it just does the same thing for you that I experienced - somewhat reduces PEM?
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
1,998
The only downside is the fact that you return to how you were before after a couple of hours. So, I was making capsules - but 100 capsules would last less than a week when I'm particularly bad (usually 4 or 5 capsules for a dose). This got tiresome. So I bought cumin extract and a single drop of this does the same job as 4 or 5 capsules. It's a much better experience using the extract. So much easier. Just a single drop in a capsule.

Which extract are you using? I cook with cumin every day, but that's probably not as much as the dosages being discussed here.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
Which extract are you using? I cook with cumin every day, but that's probably not as much as the dosages being discussed here.

For my purposes I couldn't eat enough food with cumin to meet the demand.

This is the cumin extract I bought:

https://holylama.co.uk/product/cumin-seed-spice-extract/

It's UK based I think...

I got the 5ml for £5 first of all and then got the 100ml for £20. The former comes with a dropper so I just refill the smaller bottle.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,635
Location
Alberta
I haven't tried sublingual,

I did that experiment just to check whether it required gut absorption (or affected the microbiome) or whether it affected the brain directly. Hardly an exhaustive test, but it convinced me that its effect was on the brain.

When I needed LDN to block neuropathic pain, taking it sublingually worked at about 1/3 less powder than swallowing a capsule. That led me to try many thing sublingually. I do believe that ME is primarily a neuroimmune disorder.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,635
Location
Alberta
No one else has reported the full blocking for 3 days that I experienced. Several have reported mild benefits: enough to continue taking it. As with all treatments for ME, you have to try it to see if it works for you, and if it doesn't, you add it to your list of "didn't work for me". Some treatments that don't work when you first try them could possibly start working someday, since ME changes over time.

Cumin initially gave me temporary remission, but then stopped working. I kept trying it once or twice a year in the faint hope that it would work again. It was ten or more years before I happened to give it one of those tries just before doing an activity that I was sure would trigger PEM ... and noticed that the PEM didn't happen. Just a very lucky situation. If I'd tried it a couple of days earlier or later, I might still be having PEM.