Copper dysregulation

NotThisGuy

NotThisGuy

Senior Member
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312
Gondwanaland said:
Could you please describe the symptoms? I get eye issues too (pain - dr. said I have epithelial dystrophy in the cornea and prescribed hyaluronic acid drops which cause me photophobia + ingestion of linseed oil which I will start tonight).
I suspect glycine deficiency might be playing a role since it is one of the main constituents of eye tissues.
B5 worsens it dramatically (B5 is a known antagonist of taurine, bile acids, probably also glycine?).
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Its like a high pressure in the eyes with impaired quality of sight when looking down (so turning the eyeballs down)
 
Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

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5,100
Thinking about the several levels of copper synergists

collagen cross-linking: Biotin, Lysine, glycine

immunity: fat-soluble vitamins

hormonal (thyroid/sex hormones): zinc, iodine, selenium

bone: calcium

blood formation: B vitamins, iron, potassium, L-Histidine

ceruloplasmin: vitamin A and B5

glutathione/glutathione peroxidase: B2 B3 methionine Selenium http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methionine-synthase.53957/

chelators: molybdenum, vitamin C, sulfur (MSM chondroitin glucosamine), zinc, EDTA, citrate, Carnosine, Carcinine, penicillin, penicillamine, polyphenol oxidase (present in some fruit to prevent browning)

http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html
Copper Synergists:
Calcium, potassium, iron, Vitamin E.

Copper Antagonists / Inhibitors:
Sulfur, molybdenum, zinc, nickel, chromium, tin,
Vitamin B6, Vitamin C, hesperidin, insoluble fiber.
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More here at a pro-copper biased info compilation (haven't read it yet) http://skinbiology.com/copper-the-protective-antiaging-metal.html
 
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bond

bond

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22
That's very interesting, I too have exactly the same copper deficiency+toxicity symptoms - high histamine, inability to tolerate antioxidants(probably low Cp or bioavailable iron), varicose veins.
I've tried the classical toxicity/chelating protocols that are prescribed by HTMA analytics(zinc, molybdenum, manganese etc...) and also Morley Robbins root cause protocol, both to no avail. I've been actually getting worse on both protocols.

I've got the feeling that adrenal function is crucial in copper bioavailability. It's interesting that B5 is frequently suggested for adrenal support, I wonder if the mechanism it works is by improving ceruloplasmin->reducing unbound copper->reducing stress.

Also some HTMA specialists suggest that 'slow oxidisers' retain more copper but 'fast oxidisers' need more copper.

Boron is also believed to raise ceruloplasmin but I've actually got worse taking it.
 
Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

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bond said:
It's interesting that B5 is frequently suggested for adrenal support, I wonder if the mechanism it works is by improving ceruloplasmin->reducing unbound copper->reducing stress.
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I just added above that L-Histidine is needed for RBC and WBC formation. Something to look into. I hope others will have more info on it.
 
Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

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bond said:
what is the relation between B5 and histidine?
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Histidine is needed for hemoglobin synthesis

ETA - B5 builds ceruloplasmin, also needed for RBC synthesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceruloplasmin#Function
Ceruloplasmin exhibits a copper-dependent oxidase activity, which is associated with possible oxidation of Fe2+ (ferrous iron) into Fe3+ (ferric iron), therefore assisting in its transport in the plasma in association with transferrin, which can carry iron only in the ferric state.
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bond

bond

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Thanks @Gondwanaland
I've always wondered how accurate is when people say that some substance chelates or lowers another one.
I guess usually the chelating effect is weak and lowering occurs only at cellular or liver level but never systematic - i.e. the copper will just be moved from one place in the body elsewhere.
 
Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

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As a potent copper antagonist, Molybdenum can't be overlooked.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/molybdenum

SInce it is crucial for a few important enzymes, it must be kept in balance within the body.

Molybdenum is crucial when taking carnosine, and so is copper.

To keep Cu and Mo in balance is the hardest thing I ever experienced.

The role of Mo in the synthesis of RBCs, melatonin and bile acids is poorly studied.
 
Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

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Also Molybdenum is key for hormone breakdown (steroids, thyroid). Lack or excess of Molybdenum itself can lead to copper dysregulation.

ETA - I think Molybdenum also plays a role in Glutathione regeneration (sulfur metabolism)
 
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Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
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5,100
bond said:
Anyone with copper toxicity/deficiency and experience with Rutin?
There are some sources that suggest Rutin forms potent antioxidant complex with(unbound?) copper - Cu(Rut)Cl2 and also reduces copper level in the liver.
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I felt better when I 1st tried Rutin (cleared joint pain/bursitis), but felt poor in subsequent trials. I suppose at some point one shouldn't lower copper any further.

However I felt a stronger copper antagonism from Hesperidin (oranges).
 
T

Thewonders92

Messages
69
Gondwanaland said:
@Thewonders92 could you please update us on your health?
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I have no way of giving clinical figures in regards to my health, as doctors will not test me for anything I had been treating. But I'm still completely well. I went from around a decade of worsening health, energy and mood to being able to work full time, exercise and get energy from it rather than lose energy, I've lost about 50lbs and don't have to balance and fight herx reactions when I try new supplements anymore.

My only issues now are Anhedonia and lack of joy in life, I always knew the body would have to come first, then the mind. But I've got some significant issues with my dopaminergic system that I'm working on.

But as far as physical illness or the worst of my chronic fatigue, it's a memory now, it's been quite a while now that I only improve, haven't had a slip up or return of symptoms since I balanced copper and got my gut health sorted out.

I'll be coming back here soon once I've got some more time to start sharing again, I still spend most of my free time researching, and I'd like to try and help people get at least to where I'm at, it's a scary contrast to see how functional I am now vs the majority of my life.
 
NotThisGuy

NotThisGuy

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Messages
312
Thewonders92 said:
I have no way of giving clinical figures in regards to my health, as doctors will not test me for anything I had been treating. But I'm still completely well. I went from around a decade of worsening health, energy and mood to being able to work full time, exercise and get energy from it rather than lose energy, I've lost about 50lbs and don't have to balance and fight herx reactions when I try new supplements anymore.

My only issues now are Anhedonia and lack of joy in life, I always knew the body would have to come first, then the mind. But I've got some significant issues with my dopaminergic system that I'm working on.

But as far as physical illness or the worst of my chronic fatigue, it's a memory now, it's been quite a while now that I only improve, haven't had a slip up or return of symptoms since I balanced copper and got my gut health sorted out.

I'll be coming back here soon once I've got some more time to start sharing again, I still spend most of my free time researching, and I'd like to try and help people get at least to where I'm at, it's a scary contrast to see how functional I am now vs the majority of my life.
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uhm.. did i missed a post from you in this thread?
How did this miracle happen? Was it the copper or the carnosine?
Can u post your list of supplements/medication?
What helped you with your gut?
 
N

NoelF

Messages
5
@Thewonders92 I'de be very interested to hear what made the difference for you? Was it the copper or the carnosine? I am now going through a copper dumping period after taking copper supplementation and wonder whether I should hang in or stop supplementing...
 
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