Complete shift in symptoms from B vitamins

[healthybunny55]

Would you happen to know if you are highly sensitive by the definition and test of Elaine Aron? I suspect that my crazy methylation reactions has something to do with my nervous system being wired that way (I get 23 out of 25 in the test).


Do you remember what that OAT test said about b vitamins and minerals? Sounds like you have had this problem for years? Or at least I would suspect that such a strong reaction would stem from the methylation problem building up over years. Allthough it also sounds like you have more than one issue going on at the same time.

I am not at all a test expert. I hope someone else can answer this. I suggested testing before I realized that probably potassium is your main problem at the moment.

Wow, you are a biochemist? That is so cool! I just read along and try to pick up clues and inspiration for what supplement to try next. I never get the bigger picture due to my cognitive impairment, but since self-experimenting is at the core of what I do that is relatively ok. But wow, yes, the brain fog is a factor.

This is all new land to me. I'll have to look into it.

Hmm, I need to figure out how to quote parts of the message. I hope it's okay if I respond like this for now. I will try to figure it out tomorrow. I must say - I do feel a bit better now. Not 100%, but so much better. Perhaps the 200mg potassium and coconut water kicked in. My heart rate is fine-ish now. I also ended up crying, whereas I was previously holding a lot of tension. Perhaps the crying helped the heart rate, too, but the K helped with the dizziness.

My OAT mostly showed high oxalic acid, high uric acid, tartaric acid, and some mito issues, but don't recall anything major with the Bs. I think it showed high B5.

Yes, I also scored 23/25 on that HSP test. Every time I think about the HSP concept, I worry about being a vulnerable narcissist! I don't really know what HSP means at the end of the day. I think that there are connections with autism, too, and undermethylation, and so many things. I think that the connection to childhood trauma is an interesting one, too.

Yes, I'm a biochemist and immunologist, but somehow, I find it much harder to decipher my own health because there's too much emotion attached and I become impatient and start introducing too many variables. Lately, I have had such difficulty thinking clearly, which really does not help. It wasn't always like this and seems to come and go in waves.

Sensitivity to salicylates and histamine can stem from oxalate. Oxalate is really so fascinating. A wonderful group on facebook is Trying Low Oxalates. So many who've adopted a low oxalate diet have seen miraculous progress. Interestingly, some B vitamins, especially thiamine, can induce oxalate dumping - when the body releases stored oxalate. It can cause all sorts of symptoms, including the ones I've been experiencing. When oxalate leaves the body, potassium and magnesium also becomes more deranged. It all comes around full circle! Oxalates must be reduced very slowly - at a rate of 5% per week, in order to manage dumping symptoms. Some supplements can support the process, and one can also be an endogenous producer. The OAT would show this. Endogenous production can be a result of mold mycotoxins, for instance.

 

[Dysfunkion]

I'm not sure what is has done, really. I used it only for one minute a day, but there are people in vagus nerve stimulator Facebook groups that talk about getting similar effects from 10 seconds. It just seems so crazy to me! However, I have had pretty extreme reactions to EMF and radiofrequency devices in the past. It's supposed to help with dysautonomia, but it can obviously also cause overstimulation.

I also used NAC for a few days, prior to the addition of the Bs. The strange thing is that I have no physical fatigue now, nor do I have muscle weakness. I can walk around the house feeling fine, apart from the immense dizziness and neurological effects. Interesting that the K2 helped!

I'm also severely EMF sensitive to a life crippling degree and know that at first exposure to more than I can handle will usually first result in an overstimulated, almost manic state and then the real fun begins. That's the main reason why I have stayed away from devices in general since I feel like for me they'll do more harm than good even in strict moderation.

I was using NAC for around a year before I got really ill. I at first got really over stimulated from it and then it made me more calm after some time on it at 500 mg which I liked. I added methyl-folate sometime after and that's when shortly after with other factors everything went down hill. Methyl supplements are no joke, you can get yourself into quite a difficult situation if they're not used properly and I was very stupid with that folate perpetuated disaster I threw myself into. I also mostly have the waves of neurological fatigue, like right now physically I'm fine but neurologically my brain is too tired to do much of anything.

 

[healthybunny55]

@Bluebluesky By the way, I don't think that HSP always equates to narcissism, but it's just something I think about. Are you familiar with Dabrowski's positive disintegration and 5 overexcitabilities?
There is also the RCCX theory, which links overexcitabilities with chronic health conditions. I can send you a couple of interesting links if you're interested.
The dizziness has gone away! Thank you! I can think once again..

 

[healthybunny55]

I'm also severely EMF sensitive to a life crippling degree and know that at first exposure to more than I can handle will usually first result in an overstimulated, almost manic state and then the real fun begins. That's the main reason why I have stayed away from devices in general since I feel like for me they'll do more harm than good even in strict moderation.

I was using NAC for around a year before I got really ill. I at first got really over stimulated from it and then it made me more calm after some time on it at 500 mg which I liked. I added methyl-folate sometime after and that's when shortly after with other factors everything went down hill. Methyl supplements are no joke, you can get yourself into quite a difficult situation if they're not used properly and I was very stupid with that folate perpetuated disaster I threw myself into. I also mostly have the waves of neurological fatigue, like right now physically I'm fine but neurologically my brain is too tired to do much of anything.

Oh, that's interesting. Obviously it's not "interesting" that you experience that - I'm sorry to hear that, because it sounds challenging. But it's interesting that it can cause such effects. I have had wild experiences from exposure to EMFS, but it sounds like even devices such as computers could affect you? I do feel much, much better when I'm outdoors and when grounded and touching the grass..

Hmm, what I don't understand is how I was taking methyl B12 sublingually for ages and was fine. I was also taking a B complex with folate, but not methyl-folate. Do you think that you just need to go super slow?

 

[Dysfunkion]

Oh, that's interesting. Obviously it's not "interesting" that you experience that - I'm sorry to hear that, because it sounds challenging. But it's interesting that it can cause such effects. I have had wild experiences from exposure to EMFS, but it sounds like even devices such as computers could affect you? I do feel much, much better when I'm outdoors and when grounded and touching the grass..

Hmm, what I don't understand is how I was taking methyl B12 sublingually for ages and was fine. I was also taking a B complex with folate, but not methyl-folate. Do you think that you just need to go super slow?

Yeah I'm on a computer right now but my computer is a low power build with a multi layered tower shield on it with only ethernet for the internet. Also only outputs VGA to my monitor which is also radiation shielded but even with it I can't handle HDMI going to the monitor. I been trying to get out more often for that reason, the more time I spend outside in general the better I feel but since it's so cold out most of the year here I can't always do that until it's finally warm which should hopefully be right around the corner.

Your guess is as good as mine but yeah it's very interesting we both have the general same thing that happened. I consume folate itself in food just fine, even large amounts of it. Maybe I might feel a bit more stimulated but that's it. I've never taken a whole b-complex before though. Going low and slow would definitely be the safest option with it but I can't say more than that on how to safely use it. I'm just not even going to touch it anymore, I clearly don't need it. I'm cautious in general about supplements, I always keep what I'm taking as small as I can. Just the things I need, and the lowest doses I need them at.

 

[Bluebluesky]

@Bluebluesky By the way, I don't think that HSP always equates to narcissism, but it's just something I think about. Are you familiar with Dabrowski's positive disintegration and 5 overexcitabilities?
There is also the RCCX theory, which links overexcitabilities with chronic health conditions. I can send you a couple of interesting links if you're interested.
The dizziness has gone away! Thank you! I can think once again..

That is wonderful! It is such a good thing to be able to think !
Nothing narcissist about you in this thread!
I'd love to see those links. And thank you for the short introduction to oxalates. It can be so hard to crack a new theory open, and that ever so short explanation was just what I needed.
I'll get back about the rest tomorrow...it's getting late here...

 

[andyguitar]

Also have H Pylori. And SIBO and all sorts. In the past, the B1/thiamine helped to resolve those GI things.

It's difficult to get rid of H Pylori without doing the triple therapy which is usually an antibiotic, Proton Pump Inhibitor and Bismuth. Even then it can take 2 cycles of treatment to kill it off.

 

[healthybunny55]

Yeah I'm on a computer right now but my computer is a low power build with a multi layered tower shield on it with only ethernet for the internet. Also only outputs VGA to my monitor which is also radiation shielded but even with it I can't handle HDMI going to the monitor. I been trying to get out more often for that reason, the more time I spend outside in general the better I feel but since it's so cold out most of the year here I can't always do that until it's finally warm which should hopefully be right around the corner.

Your guess is as good as mine but yeah it's very interesting we both have the general same thing that happened. I consume folate itself in food just fine, even large amounts of it. Maybe I might feel a bit more stimulated but that's it. I've never taken a whole b-complex before though. Going low and slow would definitely be the safest option with it but I can't say more than that on how to safely use it. I'm just not even going to touch it anymore, I clearly don't need it. I'm cautious in general about supplements, I always keep what I'm taking as small as I can. Just the things I need, and the lowest doses I need them at.

Oh I was mistaken! My previous B complex had methyl-folate, but super low dose at 25mcg. Perhaps this is what is best - a super low dose B complex? It's called Para-Pack.

 

[healthybunny55]

It's difficult to get rid of H Pylori without doing the triple therapy which is usually an antibiotic, Proton Pump Inhibitor and Bismuth. Even then it can take 2 cycles of treatment to kill it off.

Oh, I'm guessing something like mastic gum won't be sufficient, then..
Interestingly, my microbiome report shows PPIs as being the most detrimental. Hmm.

 

[healthybunny55]

That is wonderful! It is such a good thing to be able to think !
Nothing narcissist about you in this thread!
I'd love to see those links. And thank you for the short introduction to oxalates. It can be so hard to crack a new theory open, and that ever so short explanation was just what I needed.
I'll get back about the rest tomorrow...it's getting late here...

Thank you
Well, I think that vulnerable narcissism is different, but hopefully does not apply to me.
Sure, let me know in case you have any questions about oxalates, since I can now think.
Re RCCX theory - https://me-pedia.org/wiki/RCCX_Genetic_Module_Theory and https://www.rccxandillness.com/

 

[andyguitar]

Oh, I'm guessing something like mastic gum won't be sufficient, then..

Probably not.

 

[Dysfunkion]

Oh I was mistaken! My previous B complex had methyl-folate, but super low dose at 25mcg. Perhaps this is what is best - a super low dose B complex? It's called Para-Pack.

Way lower than what I was one as at 1000 mcg a dose, I'd only give it a try again in a low dose b-complex but it's not something I'll be trying any time soon.

 

[Bluebluesky]

Hi again. I hope you are still feeling better today!

Re RCCX theory - https://me-pedia.org/wiki/RCCX_Genetic_Module_Theory and https://www.rccxandillness.com/

This is really, really interesting! It would make a lot of sense. I suppose if you get a gene test then you can rule yourself in or out of the group that she is speaking of, is that right?

Hmm, I need to figure out how to quote parts of the message.

When you mark the text that you want to reply to there is a quote option beside the reply option. That will send the selected text to a clipboard. So younrepeat that for all the text you want to answer to. Then you go to the text input field and there will be an 'insert quotes...' button that you press to select and add your quotes from the clipboard.

Yes, I'm a biochemist and immunologist, but somehow, I find it much harder to decipher my own health because there's too much emotion attached and I become impatient and start introducing too many variables. Lately, I have had such difficulty thinking clearly, which really does not help. It wasn't always like this and seems to come and go in waves.

Wow again, that must give you so much insight. But I can also see that knowing much will often make things a lot more confusing, and more so the closer it gets to the tip of your nose.

I know that I am supposed to put all in one post, bit with my cognitive impairment there is a limit to how much I can juggle with at once. So I will answer over several posts.

 

[drmullin30]

Hello @healthybunny55, how much B6 are you taking? B6 toxicity is a hidden epidemic and if you are taking multiples of RDI you may have developed B6 toxicity and small fiber neuropathy which can cause a lot of different symptoms including anxiety and panic, electrolyte imbalances, oxalate mismanagement etc.

https://understandingb6toxicity.com/
https://understandingb6toxicity.com/b6-toxicity/symptoms/

If you feel better eating higher oxalate it could be because you are soaking up B6 with the oxalates or are switching off oxalate dumping.

I hope this helps and I wish you good health and wellbeing.

 

[Artemisia]

What vagus device are you using, please?

 

[linusbert]

Hello @healthybunny55, how much B6 are you taking? B6 toxicity is a hidden epidemic and if you are taking multiples of RDI you may have developed B6 toxicity and small fiber neuropathy which can cause a lot of different symptoms including anxiety and panic, electrolyte imbalances, oxalate mismanagement etc.

https://understandingb6toxicity.com/
https://understandingb6toxicity.com/b6-toxicity/symptoms/

If you feel better eating higher oxalate it could be because you are soaking up B6 with the oxalates or are switching off oxalate dumping.

I hope this helps and I wish you good health and wellbeing.

i have read that before, i do not understand the physiology behind this how that could possibly translate into real issue (not doubting it does). not from real foods without supplementation.
when doing exercise muscle storage of vitamin b6 is drained by like ~80% (cannot recall actual number, but the number was significantly high i remember). so the fastest way to get rid of it is by doing muscle exercises. thats why one doctor recommended me taking it. though i do not because i get problems from it if taken isolated. if i take it with the whole b complex i do not get those problems (which are like a vibrating feeling in the legs and muscle twitches and that really angry agitated emotional state).

what i could come up with as explanation:

- synthetic b6 actually causing b6 deficiency by competing with active natural b6
-- synthetics could be hidden in american food supply, usually they do not add whole bandwidth of vitamins but just some, like energy drinks usually come with b6, b12 and taurin. taking any isolated vitamins for long time will cause eventually problems due to imbalances.
(note, some synthetic forms are just bad and hard for sick bodies to convert, like folic acid. it accumulates and makes problems - where as good active folinic acid or folat does not)
(note, hyper- and hypovitaminosis of b6 has same symptoms)

- missing cofactor like b2. as b6 and b2 (and then others) need to be in correct relations. i believe that the ratio should be like 1:1 or 2:1 (b2 : b6).
(maybe doing some b2 might help)

- genetic issues in storage or usage like with morbus wilson for copper and other storage diseases


in general, american food is fucked up with those fortifications introducing the bad and cheap vitamins which can in fact accumulate like said with folic acid if the body isnt fast enough converting them into the correct forms.
in general if that is possible i'd try to avoid any fortificated foods to not get any synthetic vitamins and then try to restore balances by adding cofactors (as the good body available forms).
(this whole fortification is stupid anyways, how sane people could come up with this adding to general food supply is beyond me. you do not know what people eat in what quantities, its impossible to give them the right amounts. also demands change with diseases and individual body metabolism. if they want to add vitamins they should do that as separate pills/supplements - also people then get the choice to use good quality forms and not the cheap garbage)

 

[Violeta]

I found this study about GABA being helpful for GERD while looking into GERD for one of my neices.

https://www.gastrojournal.org/artic...jects,inhibition of transient LES relaxations.

I realize that taking a GABA agonist or GABA itself doesn't get to the root of the issue, but may be a clue to the reason for it. Glutamate/GABA imbalance is common in ME/CFS.