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Community symposium on molecular basis of ME/CFS at Stanford Discussion Thread

Jenny TipsforME

Senior Member
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1,184
Location
Bristol
Given that rodents have a far shorter lifespan than humans you probably wouldn't need anywhere near to 8 weeks of continued stress exposure to trigger the metabolic trap,
Yes it wouldn’t need to be 8 weeks for them but the trigger is important I think- after a short stressor you to return to normal even if you have IDO2 variants.

especially if you happen to be a mouse or a rat!
Lucky for you @wigglethemouse

If your library doesn't have a copy, let's just say a certain russian lib has one.

I tried to get it through our information sharing Russian friends but it didn’t open :(

[edit got it now]
 
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dreamydays

Senior Member
Messages
182
Location
United Kingdom
Update on low tryptophan diet:

I have been doing the diet for a few days now, no cheating. Its very limited, but I am disciplined. I have added Niagen 125mg (NAD+) and Niacin 500mg.

Am I any better?
Well, I have been having good days with the odd spell of strong fatigue. I am getting stronger at the moment anyway. Certainly no major side effects. Any improvement will obviously be on a J Curve anyway. I will keep you all updated.
 
Messages
88
Does anyone have an idea how high TRYP, low KYN can cause low serotonin and/or norepinephrine?

I can get rid of 95% of my chronic pain by taking an SNRI. So I must be very low in serotonin and/or norepinephrine. I have a classic case of ME that started after I got mono.

I tried reading some studies. But couldn’t find the answer.
 

raghav

Senior Member
Messages
809
Location
India
Is it possible that one could have high serotonin in the digestive tract and low serotonin in the brain ?
 
Messages
54
Is it possible that one could have high serotonin in the digestive tract and low serotonin in the brain ?

In the Q&A at the end of the symposium, Robert Phair mentioned that serotonin could be high or low, depending on cell type. So.. maybe? Their experiments were performed on white blood cells.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,323
Update on low tryptophan diet:

I have been doing the diet for a few days now, no cheating. Its very limited, but I am disciplined. I have added Niagen 125mg (NAD+) and Niacin 500mg.

Am I any better?
Well, I have been having good days with the odd spell of strong fatigue. I am getting stronger at the moment anyway. Certainly no major side effects. Any improvement will obviously be on a J Curve anyway. I will keep you all updated.

Very interesting experiment, keep us updated. I know Ron cautioned against self treating, but I wonder if there is any reason to think a diet reduced or absent in tryptophan could not potentially get you out of the metabolic trap (of course assuming that the hypothesis of Robert Phair is valid)?

It seems obvious to me that since tryptophan is an amino acid that cannot be synthesized by the body, there should be a connection between dietary intake and intracellular tryptophan levels. Of course we all get more than enough tryptophan from almost any kind of diet, so I bet nobody has tried something like this before. I also wonder if this could somehow link to the fact that a lot of people with ME/CFS feel better during fasting, but then quickly regress when braking the fast.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
. I have added Niagen 125mg (NAD+) and Niacin 500mg.
Hate to break it to you but Niagen is not NAD+.
It is nicotinamide riboside which must be converted to be used. Not all of us convert it. I've done 2 month long trials of 1g daily 8 months apart and found it was expensive, but did nothing.

I have, however, had good results from IVs with NAD+ and sublingual NAD+ lozenges from LIAS Research. Enada NADH has helped, too, but not as much as the NAD+.

There is a lot of hype in the NAD world - almost everything on the market is not pure NAD+ and must be converted. (You can usually tell what it is by the price - NR is pricey, niacinamide, etc. are cheap, and reading the fine print helps, too...)
 

kurt

Senior Member
Messages
1,186
Location
USA
I've been corresponding with Dr Pfair. I also had the thought that maybe we can lower our tryptophan levels, or lower absorption rates, to naturally boost kynurenine. But based on our discussion, I doubt we can self-treat and fix the metabolic trap that way at this point.

DIET: There is no reason to believe a low tryptophan diet will work. First of all, low tryptophan in the blood or CSF does not lead to lower levels in the cells. You would think it might, but apparently the affinity levels are so strong for tryptophan within the cells (mM as low as 1), that the cells are not going to just slough off tryptophan because levels are low outside the cells. And the whole point of the high levels in the cell is that the kynurenine is not being produced, meaning very low catabolism of tryptophan in the cell. Translation: the cells are not using their tryptophan so starving them of more won't help since they already have an over-supply, they are not using much of it right now, they do not like letting tryptophan go.

ABSORPTION: This is an alternative to changing the diet, why not simply block tryptophan uptake. This is easy, just take BCAAs, which compete with tryptophan for absorption. This is known to work, has been used before with other tryptophan related disorders. I even tried it for a few days. It made a tiny difference, maybe, but it was unstable, one day better, one day neutral or maybe a little worse. Anyway, Dr Phair had already considered this idea. He does not think blocking tryptophan absorption would work either for lowering levels inside cells, but since I had tried it, we discussed. He said blocking uptake would definitely lower levels in serum and CSF, but probably not in cells. However, the advantage of this approach is that you don't starve yourself of other nutrients, BCAAs can be taken along with meals with tryptophan. But again, I've tried it and may try again but only to replicate. And I don't recommend this if people are sensitive to amino supplements (some are from soy). This is probably a fairly safe thing to try, but again, like the diet approach, unlikely to work.

There is an entire ecosystem here, the kynurenine pathway is complicated. I read around a bit and started to wonder if it is a good idea to boost it too much, or rapidly, in CFS patients. What if it would be intolerable? Do we want to start up metabolic processes our bodies have shut down, possibly for a reason. For example, high kynurenine levels are known to increase cancer risk. Hmmm. Also, the kynurenine pathway can be influenced by the adrenal system. It is certainly possible that low adrenals or problems with cortisol regulation have a significant effect on kynurenine levels. So what if adrenal exhaustion plays a role in low kynurenine levels? Would forcing kynurenine higher have a positive or negative effect on the adrenals? (I have no idea, just pointing out there are more interrelationships here that could be important for CFS that need to be considered)

Some other thoughts... Tryptophan's major function is in the liver, it is processed by TDO enzymes there. Only 5% or so of our tryptophan is used outside the liver and processed by IDO. Therefore, lowering tryptophan levels could have an effect on liver function. This has been studied, but I did not look at the studies in depth, however, I think we need to consider possible side-effects of altering the tryptophan system rapidly or too much.

Other points. The kynurenine pathway has been studied with suicidal patients and is definitely disrupted for them. Just a point worth mentioning.

This is very basic research. I think it is great to have some progress, a reason to keep hope alive and keep funding flowing to the researchers. But I am trying to stay realistic also, and remember the many previous research findings that seemed to be about to change everything, and did nothing... So trying to stay grounded, hope this post was not too negative, but just feeling cautionary today. Hopeful still, but with guarded optimism.
 
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Jenny TipsforME

Senior Member
Messages
1,184
Location
Bristol
Other points. The kynurenine pathway has been studied with suicidal patients and is definitely disrupted for them. Just a point worth mentioning.

Yes I came across this too. Suicidal people tended to have higher kynurenine. This is worth bearing in mind as a possible consequence of messing around with this pathway, especially if your mental health is relatively good given the circumstances.
 

Murph

:)
Messages
1,799
Eating less tryptophan seems like it should work, but Phair's talk included a slide showing a computational model that argued that even if plasma tryptophan levels fell back to normal, cellular levels would stay elevated for a really long time. Panel B predicts that cellular trp would be at 10 billion instead of 10 million (A THOUSAND TIMES TOO HIGH) for about nine years.

Screen Shot 2018-10-11 at 10.04.12 PM.png

While we can't know how his model works, I also found this paper:which finds some experimental evidence for the claim cells and serum can show very different levels .

Distinct Patterns of Tryptophan Maintenance in Tissues during Kynurenine Pathway Activation in Simian Immunodeficiency Virus-Infected Macaques

It says:

>We found that TRP levels were remarkably stable in tissue sites despite robust depletion in the circulating plasma and CSF.


That research is on on monkeys with an HIV equivalent. (I feel bad for the monkeys, but a sign you're dealing with a well-funded disease is they have monkey models, not just computer or mouse models!)

If Phair's model is right low trp intake would not solve the problem. But low trp intake might yet forestall it for people who have not hit that eight week stress threshold. I wonder if future treatment for EBV infection might include cutting back trp intake to avoid this trap and any risk of cfs?!
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I had been wondering how B6 plays into this. This article has a lot of familiar topics, discussing tryptophan, the kynurenine pathway, peroxynitrites, cytokines, the transsulfuration pathway and sphingolipids.
 

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aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,732
Interesting & complicated. I had widely elevated plasma B6 years ago ....my doctor said it was accumulating in the blood, not making it into the cell.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Tryptophan supplementation can apparenty cause severe issues, so while avoiding dietary tryptophan probably won't cure this, it is probably worth a try:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848710/

"Eosinophilia–myalgia syndrome (EMS) is characterized by subacute onset of myalgias and peripheral eosinophilia, followed by chronic neuropathy and skin induration. An epidemic of EMS in 1989 was linked to L-tryptophan consumption originating from a single source. Following the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) ban on the sale of L-tryptophan, the incidence of EMS declined rapidly. Moreover, no new cases have been published since the FDA ban was lifted in 2005. We report the clinical, histopathological and immunogenetic features of a new case of L-tryptophan-associated EMS along with evidence of activated transforming growth factor-ß and interleukin-4 signaling in the lesional skin."
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
So, in the absence of drugs that directly affect IDO2 or IDO1, do we know of drugs or supplements that may affect tryptophan/kynurenine levels intracellularly? I've been combing the literature and can'nt find much. BCAAs and gelatin can't hurt, but idk if they would affect intracellular levels
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00262-012-1265-x

Effects of 1-methyltryptophan stereoisomers on IDO2 enzyme activity and IDO2-mediated arrest of human T cell proliferation

IDO2 is a newly discovered enzyme with 43 % similarity to classical IDO (IDO1) protein and shares the same critical catalytic residues. IDO1 catalyzes the initial and rate-limiting step in the degradation of tryptophan and is a key enzyme in mediating tumor immune tolerance via arrest of T cell proliferation. The role of IDO2 in human T cell immunity remains controversial. Here, we demonstrate that similar to IDO1, IDO2 also degrades tryptophan into kynurenine and is inhibited more efficiently by Levo-1-methyl tryptophan (L-1MT), an IDO1 competitive inhibitor, than by dextro-methyl tryptophan (D-1MT). Although IDO2 enzyme activity is weaker than IDO1, it is less sensitive to 1-MT inhibition than IDO1. Moreover, our results indicate that human CD4+ and CD8+ T cell proliferation was inhibited by IDO2, but both L-1MT and D-1MT could not reverse IDO2-mediated arrest of cell proliferation, even at high concentrations. These data indicate that IDO2 is an inhibitory mechanism in human T cell proliferation and support efforts to develop more effective IDO1 and IDO2 inhibitors in order to overcome IDO-mediated immune tolerance.