Clonazepam (Klonopin) stops my symptoms almost completely

[Davsey27]

Thanks for your reply. Just out of curiosity, why do you think 4x a day is too much if the dose is the same as 2x per day .5? My doc said it wasn’t an issue although I’m not sure he’s an expert on taking benzos. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Given that the elimination half life is roughly 30-40 hrs dependent on your metabolism it's really unnecessary to be dosing 4x a day unlike Xanax which has shorter half life

Yes it would be equivalent to .5 2x a day.

I know you mentioned. .5mg was to sedating so perhaps. 5mg 2x a day may be too much

CFS doctor Paul Cheney had a protocol where he used .25mg in the morning another .25 in the afternoon and 1mg at night.Mentioning that this helps the seizure threshold as with ME brain is closer towards seizure than comatose

If you chisr to take it,lowest dose with most benefit may be a way to go

If I took .25mg more frequently like 4x a day it seems that the body may be more likely to get use to the drug,not that dependency doesn't occur after longer term use

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Given that the elimination half life is roughly 30-40 hrs dependent on your metabolism it's really unnecessary to be dosing 4x a day unlike Xanax which has shorter half life

There's a deep misunderstanding of 'elimination half life' and metabolic/active half life.

'Elimination half-life' is the point at which, if you were drug-tested, there would be no metabolic traces left in your system to trigger a positive response.

'Active half-life' is the point at which the EFFECTS of the drug are no longer active, or have decreased enough to make it ineffective against whatever you were taking it for, ie, it ceases to offer relief of symptoms.

The active half life of Klonopin depends on your P450/3A4 pathway, and whether you're a fast eliminator or a slow eliminator. This will also depend on other prescription and non-prescription drugs you're taking at the same time, some of which may be inhibitors (they slow that pathway) or inducers (they speed up that pathway).

Drs and manufacturers really like to exaggerate the effective time of what they're prescribing or selling, so you have to do a bit of guessing, as well as personal observation, to determine the actual effective time of whatever you're taking.

In the case of Klonopin, its active level peaks at about 3-4 hours, and it's downhill from there. How fast you roll downhill depends on the factors I outlined above, and will vary from individual to individual.

To call Klonopin a 'long-lsting' relief option is deeply misleading. For comparison, Valium/diazepam has a half life as long as 48-72 hours, and it's active in your system for as long as 12 - 15 hours. It's ne of the reasons diazepam is used in so many tapering programs ....

EDIT, FOR CLARITY .... While it's true that Klonopin is hardly a long-lasting relief option, it's INFINITELY better than the Ativan and Xanax that Drs hand out like stocking stuffers at Christmas or party favors at a kids birthday ....

 

[Davsey27]

There's a deep misunderstanding of 'elimination half life' and metabolic/active half life.

'Elimination half-life' is the point at which, if you were drug-tested, there would be no metabolic traces left in your system to trigger a positive response.

'Active half-life' is the point at which the EFFECTS of the drug are no longer active, or have decreased enough to make it ineffective against whatever you were taking it for, ie, it ceases to offer relief of symptoms.

The active half life of Klonopin depends on your P450/3A4 pathway, and whether you're a fast eliminator or a slow eliminator. This will also depend on other prescription and non-prescription drugs you're taking at the same time, some of which may be inhibitors (they slow that pathway) or inducers (they speed up that pathway).

Drs and manufacturers really like to exaggerate the effective time of what they're prescribing or selling, so you have to do a bit of guessing, as well as personal observation, to determine the actual effective time of whatever you're taking.

In the case of Klonopin, its active level peaks at about 3-4 hours, and it's downhill from there. How fast you roll downhill depends on the factors I outlined above, and will vary from individual to individual.

To call Klonopin a 'long-lsting' relief option is deeply misleading. For comparison, Valium/diazepam has a half life as long as 48-72 hours, and it's active in your system for as long as 12 - 15 hours. It's ne of the reasons diazepam is used in so many tapering programs ....

EDIT, FOR CLARITY .... While it's true that Klonopin is hardly a long-lasting relief option, it's INFINITELY better than the Ativan and Xanax that Drs hand out like stocking stuffers at Christmas or party favors at a kids birthday ....

Appreciate your perspective,

Good to learn something new

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Good to learn something new

I know, I feel the same way. I tend to dig deeper for information, especially when what I 'know' comes from the medical community ....

Which is fortunate, because the medical community is pretty reluctant to supply actual, real information, and seem content to coast on the bullshit machine that most of BigPharm provides. Go figure ....

 

[Davsey27]

I know, I feel the same way. I tend to dig deeper for information, especially when what I 'know' comes from the medical community ....

Which is fortunate, because the medical community is pretty reluctant to supply actual, real information, and seem content to coast on the bullshit machine that most of BigPharm provides. Go figure ....

Appreciate your input,

I was curious given that there isn't really any cure for Me/Cfs what are your thoughts on Long term daily low dose benzo usage if one gets improvement in brain fog,fatigue,reduced duration of pem?
Thank you

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

what are your thoughts on Long term daily low dose benzo usage if one gets improvement in brain fog,fatigue,reduced duration of pem?

I think long term use of any benzo is potentially dangerous and asking for even bigger problems than the ones you're trying to ameliorate with their use.

The problem with low dose daily use of a benzo is that, unless you're one of the really lucky ones who are genetically protected to some degree, low-dose use inevitably creeps up to medium-dose use, the to higher dose use, and then to the sudden realization that you're pretty far out on a limb with no help in sight. Your prescribing Dr will tell you that he/she has NEVER seen this kind of reaction, that they shocked, absolutely shocked, and imply that it's all in your head .... there will be NO help in tapering you off this stuff or even any suggestion that you should do so, until ultimately, fearing for their license or a hearing on their prescribing, they'll just cut you off cold.

That said, I know how hard it is to not use something that you think might provide relief, but I think it's important to roll those dice with some basic understanding of what the results could be ....

Whichever way you decide to go, good luck with it, and I'm here should you need any follow-up input or info ....

 

[Seadragon]

I think long term use of any benzo is potentially dangerous and asking for even bigger problems than the ones you're trying to ameliorate with their use.

The problem with low dose daily use of a benzo is that, unless you're one of the really lucky ones who are genetically protected to some degree, low-dose use inevitably creeps up to medium-dose use, the to higher dose use, and then to the sudden realization that you're pretty far out on a limb with no help in sight. Your prescribing Dr will tell you that he/she has NEVER seen this kind of reaction, that they shocked, absolutely shocked, and imply that it's all in your head .... there will be NO help in tapering you off this stuff or even any suggestion that you should do so

That said, I know how hard it is to not use something that you think might provide relief, but I think it's important to roll those dice with some basic understanding of what the results could be ....
....

Yes, agree with this. It happened to me 10 years ago and to several other forum members here. And the other thing is that they stop working after a while for most people if used regularly due to tolerance. @Davsey27

 

[dannybex]

Thanks - that is reassuring. Last night I had a major adrenaline rush, barely slept through the night, high HR etc. Theoretically this could also be because of a virus, what do you think? I’m still not sure it’s the clonazepam because this whole episode started so suddenly…

There could be dozens of reasons, but I really doubt it's the clonazepam, especially since it was a low dose and you were only on it for 7 weeks. Sometimes adrenaline or cortisol kicks in because one's blood sugar is low from not getting enough carbs/calories/...food. Extra stresses earlier in the day could've depleted your 'fuel'...

And if it is from the clonazepam, then just know you're not going crazy, you're experiencing normal withdrawal symptoms. But I still doubt it's from that.

 

[Replenished]

I've been having this strange pressure in my chest and a weak, fluttery insufficiency feeling on the heart for months and it's been at it's worst in recent days/weeks. I'm sure it's due to some low blood issue and POTS like automatic issues. Anyway, I took a Clonazepam earlier, not for that symptom but in general I've been feeling really really bad the last few days, worryingly so. Just so uncomfortable, thirsty, dizzy, tense, disorientated, just odd, malaise. Anyway I had to go out and I took a Clonazepam on the count it might help me get through the couple of hours of being out but also that it might give me a little break from my symptoms or reduce them a little. And low and behold, something that I wasn't expecting at all, the chest fluttering insufficiency feeling has all but gone. I don't understand how or why but again Clonazepam regularly stops many of my symptoms and usually leads to a better day or two even after the drug has worn off.

I've read Clonazepam is a mast cell stabiliser? Although not prescribed for this. I wonder if it might be worth trying one of the mast cell stabiliser drugs. Not sure if this is the particular mechanism of Clonazepam that helps me or something else. Any ideas?

 

[dannybex]

I've read Clonazepam is a mast cell stabiliser? Although not prescribed for this. I wonder if it might be worth trying one of the mast cell stabiliser drugs. Not sure if this is the particular mechanism of Clonazepam that helps me or something else. Any ideas?

That could be one reason, but the other is that it lowers overall stress reactions -- the almost automatic 'fight/flight/freeze' reactions -- so your body can heal. And stress raises histamine as well. The key is to learn ways bring stress levels down without the addictive drug.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@Replenished

The key is to learn ways bring stress levels down without the addictive drug.

At the risk be being boring, let me underscore @dannybex ' warning ..... clonazepam is really really really addictive, and it's so sly about it that you wont know til you try to cycle off ....

Proceed with caution ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Hiya @Wayne, good to see you, and here's hoping it's a happy New Year ..... what're the odds ....

And @dannybex .... thank you for chiming in with your warning, which kept me from being the Lone Voice of Doom .... Happy New year !!!!

 

[Replenished]

@Replenished

At the risk be being boring, let me underscore @dannybex ' warning ..... clonazepam is really really really addictive, and it's so sly about it that you wont know til you try to cycle off ....

Proceed with caution ....

I hear you. Although, I pretty avoid taking at until I feel it's absolutely necessary. I don't feel drawn to taking it. It's just when I get in a phase of days and days or absolutely hellish symptoms and awful sleep that I eventually say, you know, it's probably best if I take a Clonazepam to put a holt to this, and typically it gives me a little respite, and then the days after I invariably am quite a bit better and then try and build from there. This is probably once every couple of months that I resort to taking Clonazepam.

And yes, if I had a way of bringing similar stress reduction / reset without the drug I would do it. I'm yet to find that. Plus it feels as though the effects are more then stress reduction and it's actually in the day or two after taking the drug that I feel most benefit in terms of symptom reduction.

 

[Replenished]

That could be one reason, but the other is that it lowers overall stress reactions -- the almost automatic 'fight/flight/freeze' reactions -- so your body can heal. And stress raises histamine as well. The key is to learn ways bring stress levels down without the addictive drug.

For sure. Any recommendations on bringing the stress down naturally?

Meditation I find does very little for me, TVNS doesn't help, mindfulness doesn't help. If it's stress - fight/flight/freeze, it feels very under the surface/physical rather than me consciously being very stressed.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Any recommendations on bringing the stress down naturally?

In terms of dealing with the effects of stress, like severe anxiety and panic, for me the magical fix was patient application of mag glycinate, along with a small amount (0.25 mg) of melatonin, and about 250 mgs of Vit C .... all work at blocking the NMDA receptors, and reducing the dominance of glutamate/glutamic acid.

It wasn't a quick fix, but by taking it steadily, in small amounts (50 mgs of mag) at very tight intervals (sometimes 1 hour apart), I defused the panic/anxiety attacks, and have continued to use mag glycinate, Vit C and occasional melatonin, to keep stress responses at bay ever since, while also boosting my calcium ..... mag and calcium compete for absorption, so it's essential to maintain a decent balance of calcium. The tricky part is that calcium can also trigger stress responses, because things like the NMDA receptors and AMPA receptors are calcium ion-gated .... so continuing with the mag gly at spaced intervals with whatever form of calcium you chose, is essential .....