Chronic fatigue syndrome from vagus nerve infection: psychoneuroimmunological hypothesis

[Hip]

One experience worth mentioning is a major but temporary remission I had from ME/CFS that began the day after I had an ultrasound scan investigation on my liver at a hospital.

The locations on your belly where they place the ultrasound device in order to scan the liver is the general area where the vagus nerve running upwards from the intestines, liver and stomach passes. And there are studies to show that high intensity ultrasound can block nerve signal transmission for a while:

High-intensity focused ultrasound as a novel method of nerve conduction block: dose-dependent effects range from partial to complete block

This remission I had was very marked, as I found that my mathematical brain had returned. Brain fog severely affects my ability to think mathematically, but after this ultrasound scan, my mind became so crystal clear, that I was able take up work again on a personal project involving some mathematics (specifically: using equations that determine the path of light through optical lenses). Such work is normally completely out of the question for me because of the brain fog, which is why I was astonished to find my mind was suddenly capable of doing such mathematics again.

This remission only lasted for about 4 or 5 days, but since I pretty much never have such remissions that bring my mathematical skills back online, this particular remission really stood out. And it began the day after this liver ultrasound.

On another occasion, I also had an ultrasound scan on my kidneys, but this did not seem to produce this remission from brain fog. However, this kidney scan was mostly performed with the ultrasound device placed on my back and sides, rather than on my belly as it was with the liver scan, and this may be too far from the vagus to have effect.



I am tempted to see if I can replicate this temporary remission by getting another liver ultrasound scan done, and saying to the ultrasound technician: "Whack it up to full power please, and give me a thorough scanning!"

I did also look into using facial/muscle ultrasound massagers that you can buy from China for on eBay for as little as £20. However, the power output of these ultrasound massagers is around 0.5 Watts per cm2 on full power, whereas medical ultrasound scanners output around 10 Watts per cm2 (although not continuously, they use a rapidly pulsed output with a peak pulse intensity of 10 Watts per cm2). So basically a personal ultrasound massager will probably not substitute for a medical ultrasound scanner in terms of peak power output.

 

[JaimeS]

No, the opposite of central.

Peripheral?

 

[JaimeS]

It's probably not a bacterial infection then, and antibiotics make viral infections worse.

Does no one know how to treat autoimmune diseases naturally?

Cite for that? I've never heard of abx worsening viral infection.

Yes, there are natural methods for addressing autoimmune conditions. Baptisia tinctora pops to mind. If memory serves, it's antimicrobial, adaptogenic, and immunomodulating: seemingly tailor-made for us. But I can confidently tell you that we over-react and react paradoxically to the micro-amounts of medicinal compounds in herbs just as we do to the sledgehammer-technique of more conventional medications. Rhodiola rosea, with its ability to address hypoxia and its adaptogenic nature should be a godsend. Nope - it's hyperexcitatory, keeping us alert for a few days in a row before precipitating a dramatic crash. Even these things that seem gentle seem to provoke dramatic alterations in the body chemistry of people with ME.

I have found a few herbs that work for me, but these same medications are still too excitatory for others.

-J

 

[JaimeS]

I am tempted to see if I can replicate this temporary remission by getting another liver ultrasound scan done, and saying to the ultrasound technician: "Whack it up to full power please, and give me a thorough scanning!"

Yeah, I worry a bit about the electrical idea because the zaps at Mayo really hurt. I hope I wouldn't have to replicate that feeling to gain 24 hours' relief.

-J

 

[Violeta]

Cite for that? I've never heard of abx worsening viral infection.

Yes, there are natural methods for addressing autoimmune conditions. Baptisia tinctora pops to mind. If memory serves, it's antimicrobial, adaptogenic, and immunomodulating: seemingly tailor-made for us. But I can confidently tell you that we over-react and react paradoxically to the micro-amounts of medicinal compounds in herbs just as we do to the sledgehammer-technique of more conventional medications. Rhodiola rosea, with its ability to address hypoxia and its adaptogenic nature should be a godsend. Nope - it's hyperexcitatory, keeping us alert for a few days in a row before precipitating a dramatic crash. Even these things that seem gentle seem to provoke dramatic alterations in the body chemistry of people with ME.

I have found a few herbs that work for me, but these same medications are still too excitatory for others.

-J

You don't need a site for that, just need to

For that you must know which infection it is,

Further more for the infection I suspect there is no known treatment. So the only thing I could try, is help the immune system fight it. That seems to help but is a long yourney.

Just as lansbergen has said. Although I have found some herbs that are helping me.

 

[JaimeS]

You don't need a site for that, just need to

Not a site, like a website, I mean, do you have a scholarly citation that states that viral infections become worse if you take antibiotics?

-J

 

[Violeta]

Not a site, like a website, I mean, do you have a scholarly citation that states that viral infections become worse if you take antibiotics?

-J

A site is a website, but I don't understand why you don't just google it.

 

[ukxmrv]

My experience is that my viral infections were not badly affected by AB use for bacterial ones.

Some like Minocycline are being used for their antiviral activity

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3121275/

 

[JaimeS]

A site is a website, but I don't understand why you don't just google it.

I did. The first ten sources were all discussing how over-use of antibiotics contribute to antibiotic resistance rather than discussing that they make actual viral infections worse. By definition, some antibiotics are also anti-virals; it would be paradoxical to state that the same medication can both address a pathogen and make it worse! However, I'm very aware of my lack of knowledge and figured there was something you knew that I didn't. That's why I asked where your information was coming from.

Typically, if someone makes a claim here on PR, they back it with the evidence they've found, or make it very clear that it is their own personal theory. Even then, they typically back it up with lots of theoretical framework to show that their idea is relevant and sensible, given what we know now.

-J

 

[JaimeS]

My experience is that my viral infections were not badly affected by AB use for bacterial ones.

Some like Minocycline are being used for their antiviral activity

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3121275/

I've heard about minocycline's use in ME and this explains why! It would probably help without knowing specifics about the pathogen. Research on its use in encephalitis and retroviral illnesses is encouraging.

-J

 

[Violeta]

I did. The first ten sources were all discussing how over-use of antibiotics contribute to antibiotic resistance rather than discussing that they make actual viral infections worse. By definition, some antibiotics are also anti-virals; it would be paradoxical to state that the same medication can both address a pathogen and make it worse! However, I'm very aware of my lack of knowledge and figured there was something you knew that I didn't. That's why I asked where your information was coming from.

Typically, if someone makes a claim here on PR, they back it with the evidence they've found, or make it very clear that it is their own personal theory. Even then, they typically back it up with lots of theoretical framework to show that their idea is relevant and sensible, given what we know now.

-J

Yes, I realize that sometimes people back up their claims. In any event, I changed my post to reflect it as an opinion or possibility.

 

[Valentijn]

Yes, I realize that sometimes people back up their claims. In any event, I changed my post to reflect it as an opinion or possibility.

Well, it still looks like an incorrect opinion and/or a possibility which lacks foundation in the scientific literature.

Of course, maybe you are right. But without a citation or other source to support that antibiotics "might" worsen viral infections, it just doesn't seem to be a useful statement.

 

[lansbergen]

Well, it still looks like an incorrect opinion and/or a possibility which lacks foundation in the scientific literature.

Of course, maybe you are right. But without a citation or other source to support that antibiotics "might" worsen viral infections, it just doesn't seem to be a useful statement.

You are right but it occured to me it could be possible when one kills the beneficial bacteria it could make a disease caused by a virus worse.

In the old days when a virus infection was suspected in animals one would give an antibiotic to keep the bacteria in check but sometimes that did not work and had to be switched to another one.

 

[MeSci]

I'll search around.

Ah, apparently it's called a violet wand. You could try searching that phrase?

...huh. They may NOT be less expensive than purchasing a medical device.... but they still might be more versatile, since you can adjust them to higher or lower settings depending on your level of pain. The medical device I saw had one setting, and was designed to die when you'd used it a certain number of times. After that, you had to ditch it and purchase a new one (neat trick, and a great way to keep you purchasing/going back to your doctor). The kinky toy may be more cost-effective in the long run!

(I'll take 'Sentences you Never Hear on PR' for 200, Alex....)

www.violetwands.com actually exists as a thing. Looks like they have a wide variety of... options. Probably someone who wanted this for only medical reasons should look here: http://www.violetwands.com/main-virtuemart/violet-wands.html

-J

Thanks for that. They look a little hazardous to me, and seem to be mainly to help with pain or various other things I don't need, so I think I'll give them a miss.

 

[MeSci]

It's probably not a bacterial infection then, and if the infection is viral, antibiotics might make it worse.

Does no one know how to treat autoimmune diseases naturally?

I've been approaching it via the gut - diet and supplements. This was the theory behind it. It probably needs modifying.

It seemed to work well at first, improving and completely curing some symptoms, but it hasn't persisted continuously (like most things we try!). PEM completely or almost-completely disappeared for a while, but energy levels never improved except very briefly when I started one supplement. I am better than I was though.

 

[Violeta]

Well, it still looks like an incorrect opinion and/or a possibility which lacks foundation in the scientific literature.

Of course, maybe you are right. But without a citation or other source to support that antibiotics "might" worsen viral infections, it just doesn't seem to be a useful statement.

http://bodyecology.com/articles/why-antibiotics-put-you-at-risk-for-viral-infection

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/13/5354

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22705104?dopt=Abstract

 

[Violeta]

I've been approaching it via the gut - diet and supplements. This was the theory behind it. It probably needs modifying.

It seemed to work well at first, improving and completely curing some symptoms, but it hasn't persisted continuously (like most things we try!). PEM completely or almost-completely disappeared for a while, but energy levels never improved except very briefly when I started one supplement. I am better than I was though.

It just hit me last night that the pathogen involvement might have started in the gut, spread to the vagus nerve, but now is in the brain, maybe the hypothalamus. Oh gee, how does one get to a virus in the brain? That's a little bit more difficult.

 

[girlinthesnow]

http://bodyecology.com/articles/why-antibiotics-put-you-at-risk-for-viral-infection

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/13/5354

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22705104?dopt=Abstract

@Violeta, I've been looking for sources to explain the relationship between viruses and bacteria in the body, thanks very much for these.

 

[Hip]

http://bodyecology.com/articles/why-antibiotics-put-you-at-risk-for-viral-infection

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/13/5354

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22705104?dopt=Abstract

Interesting though they are, it should be noted that those studies don't actually show that antibiotics themselves worsen virus infection, but rather that the loss of commensal bacteria in the gut, that can occur as a result of taking antibiotics can worsen influenza virus infection. But presumably if you took probiotics when you are on antibiotics (which I have always done), this would prevent this problem.

Note also that these studies only refer to influenzavirus, so you cannot generalize these results to viruses in general.

Influenzavirus has some unique effects in the gut: influenzavirus possesses an enzyme called neuraminidase which can strip off the protective sialic acid from the mucus coating of the gut and respiratory tract. Some pathogenic gut bacteria also possess neuraminidase that can remove sialic acid. And beneficial bacteria can make use of sialic acid as a food source.

And certain dietary lectins can also strip off the protective sialic acid (this paper says that may explain why a "stone age diet" which eliminates most dietary lectins protects against upper respiratory viral infections).

Perhaps this sialic acid connection might possibly explain why influenzavirus becomes more virulent when friendly gut bacteria are reduced by antibiotics; but I am not entirely sure how.

I posted some info about sialic acid here.

Anyway, this thread is going off track.

 

[maryb]

I had IV and IM abx last year for 3 months, was really ill a couple of months later with active CMV, EBV & HSV infections (blood test showed all active at the same time)