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CFS turned my spiritual life, and my church world, upside down

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
Holmsey wrote: I work in an open plan office and it's a bit of a give away that you're not knee deep in code, you don't see many smiling programmers, not where I work at any rate.

That is sad, Holmsey.

Kim – I'm so glad you have such a supportive mom and family. You are LUCKY!!

((((((((Tammie))))))))) Go into rest-mode whenever you need to. We always understand here. Hope you feel better soon.

Resting in Him wrote: i am reminded that the only words that really matter are Christ's...and we have those preserved perfectly for us in the Gospels. Thank God!

I agree with that. I think so much of what Jesus said has been twisted and changed elsewhere in the Bible.
 

RestingInHim

Realist
Messages
159
Location
Riverside, CA, USA
with all due respect....

This can't be overstated, Jesus was a Jew, he didn't start Christianity. The council of Nicea saw the first Cannon of the bible, Constantine, the Roman emperor of the day decided for political reasons to align his empire to one religion and chose Christianity for what looks like solely political reasons, i.e. its popularity was on the rise. Those present then vied for inclusion of their own beleifs sighting many documents of the day, again politics and even foul play are indicated in which parties triumphed. Christian mysticism faired particularly badly, as has been shown by the Nag Hamadi codex, Dead sea scrolls and the like.
The New Testament is a treasure, but we should always remember that it was first pulled together in 325AD, and then changed over the centuries, usually for political reasons. it included what men thought it should include, much of what was included can be corroberated in other non Bible documents, much cannot. What was included has been both translated and in many cases interpreted, again by men. There is no, Gospel according to Jesus, so his words are as recounted by other men. If you have a King James version (1611), then again that was translated and 'formalised' according to the instructions of King James, who wanted to make sure everyone understood he was still King of his kingdom, on this earth.

For these reasons we need to be very carefull when we say something is the word of..., or something is infalliable, men certainly are not.

What's the answer? For me it's to take it into my heart and test it there, wisom doesn't belong to anyone, who said it matters little compared to what was said, that so much of such quality has been attributed to Jesus tells us he was indeed exceptional.

With all due respect to Holmsey...and at the risk of turning this thread into a debate...which none of us want!...there are some inaccuracies in your comments:

You are right to say that Jesus did not start Christianity. Jesus claimed to be the One promised throughout the Hebrew Scriptures to be the ultimate, eternal deliverer, savior, refuge, ransom, healer of souls, counselor, righteous king, (too many to list!): the Messiah, or Mashiah, (the Anointed One) which translated from the Greek (Cristos) into English is Christ. He invited people to believe in Him and, therefore, enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (synonymous with the Kingdom of God), an eternal, spiritual kingdom. The belief which Jesus taught was based on verifiable facts. It is faith that begins with understanding His claims, moves to personal reality in the heart, and moves out through ones life.

Christian was a label, intended to be somewhat derogatory, given to believers of Christ by unbelievers in Antioch (in todays Turkey) in the first century A.D. Christian means little Christ. These followers of Jesus were considered to be a new sect of Judaism, since they taught about Jesus Christ by using the Hebrew Scriptures, and since the first followers were almost all Jews.

Down through history, powerful men sought to force people to adhere to the religion of Christianity. Though some of these men believed in Jesus Christ, they acted contrary to His teachings. However, throughout the millennia since Jesus left planet earth, there have been believers who have followed the teachings of Jesus Himself, not an organization. These people constitute the church, which is what Jesus called those who believed in Him.

The writings that were later included in the New Testament, were all written by the end of the first century...within 70 years of Jesus death, resurrection, and ascension. They were circulated throughout the Middle East, Northern Africa, and Europe. There were many people alive to refute the truth of these writings if they were not true. No one did. Historians of that day only confirmed their truth, never disproved it.

The church leaders met in council from the beginning, as documented in the NT book, the Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 15. At the church council in Carthage in A.D. 397, 27 writings were officially listed (or canonized) in the NT. The criteria for inclusion were basically three: 1) only writings of those who were eyewitnesses of the resurrected Jesus, i.e. the Apostles; 2) only writings in full agreement with the Apostles teachings; and
3) only those accepted universally by the early church as inspired by God.

Archeological discoveries have shown that the current translations of the 66 books (the Bible) have only a .0001 degree of disagreement, and only grammatical differences, none that effect doctrinal truth. There are many accurate English translations which have been translated from the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek languages of the Bible.

One more thing...regarding the discussion on hell (or hades)...I'll add to my previous comment...that while the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) don't have a lot to say on the subject...Jesus talked more about hell than He did heaven. Again, the Biblical teaching is that it is separation from God. NT Scripture gives many pictures to emphasize the horror of that decision by human beings.

Again, I have no desire to debate, but to clarify the history of Christianity and, thereby, challenge our beliefs...a continual practice of mine! I pray no one is offended.
 

Holmsey

Senior Member
Messages
286
Location
Scotland, UK
Re. With all due respect.

I don't know what everyone else wants, but for myself, I certainly don't want this to turn into a debate, in fact I already have that sinking feeling as if a rare moment of unity has been shattered.

In my life I've found the most difficutl obsticle to progress in any field is when you come at something 'already knowing', in that respect, of spirituality I know only that I will always be a student, while in the realm of history I've learned that certainty has no home.

Mostly I go in good heart and from memory, and at 49 there's a lot of memory to go through. I allow myself to be off in the fine detail as long as I'm still sound in principle, while being clear of my intent. To this end I would offer on my main points, (and from my first hits with Google) -

Quote -
The name "Christ" means "annointed one". This is take from the Greek word "Christos". Some language historians trace the Greek language to the oldest Indo-European language, Sanskrit, which is 3,500 to 6,000 years old, perhaps older. By finding a Sanskrit equivilant, it is reasonable that we may be able to ascertain the probable origin of the word "Christ". The Greek "Christos" is almost identical in sound and spelling to the Sanskrit word "Krista", meaning all-attractive.

...

The Old Testament declares that by the Holy Name of the Lord one will be saved, and shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever. "Christ" indicates the Son of God. The name "Krishna" denotes God the Father, as in the Judeo/Christian reference to God. Christ or Krishna, the name is the same. We may conclude that the etymological derivation of the English world "Christ" is the Sanskrit word "Krishna".
End Quote.


With regard to Hell, I remembered Pope John Paul's words and sought them out, that I'd come to a similar understanding seperately gave me great heart at the time I first read these, hopefully for anyone troubled by Hell and it's place in a practice based on Love, this will do likewise for them -

Quote -
In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.
End Quote.


Beyon this I'd only say that I have misgivings about using the contents of a book (collection of books) to defend the veracity of the books themselves, as a basic principle, but accept the no two paths are the same and so will not take issue with what are your personal interpretations or possibly even personal revelations.

Wisdom I have found, has a way of presenting itself when most required, and with good faith I offer to anyone to rely not on historians, translators or interpreters but to trust their own heart and the One to which they belong in the pursuit of truth.

In closing, it was once said to me that "coincidence exists only to the degree we beleive in seperation", and in acknowledgement of such I would offer this quote, encountered for the first time today, 'if we reflect that the real place where Truth exists is Nature, and not in books, and that books are merely a record of what others have learned without book;' - Judge Thomas Troward on Bible Mystery and Bible Meaning.
 

RestingInHim

Realist
Messages
159
Location
Riverside, CA, USA
Dear Holmsey,

I realize my approach put you on the defensive...definitely my bad. This was not my intention. I'm very sorry. The reality is, there are several points on which we agree. My intention was to put down documented facts. Yes, history is often recorded through the beliefs of the historian...but I believe that does not mitigate fining the truth. I have studied this subject all my adult life (I am 57) and continue to be a student...constantly challenging my own beliefs...and from whom or where I got them. I love hearing what others believe, how they came to that belief, and sharing my own wth them...always an enlightening exchange.

The bottom line...let us agree to disagree...and to love one another. And, again, I apologize if I offended you.
I do believe we are all here for the same purpose, to encourage and enlighten one another regarding how to live with this life-changing disease. I have found this forum a place of refuge.

With respect,
resting still......
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
Thanks for posting that quote Holmsey. I like learning about origins of languages and words. I also like the way you used the words “Quote and Unquote” and would like to do that myself at times on here since the new Quote Box makes text hard to read. May I use your idea as well?

tee
 

Holmsey

Senior Member
Messages
286
Location
Scotland, UK
Dear Holmsey,

I realize my approach put you on the defensive...

With respect,
resting still......

Thanks for this post, probably the most difficult thing to find accord on, it's the same and yet different for everyone, I'm always on egg shells it's so easy even with good intentions to be careless around the thing someone cares about the most. Look forward to hearing from you again.

All the best,
 

Holmsey

Senior Member
Messages
286
Location
Scotland, UK
Thanks for posting that quote Holmsey. I like learning about origins of languages and words. I also like the way you used the words “Quote and Unquote” and would like to do that myself at times on here since the new Quote Box makes text hard to read. May I use your idea as well?

tee

teejkay Hi,
Wasn't as much an idea as a necessity when I re-read my post, so feel free.

Re. words, me to, even where we use them today, when you break them down and look at them it can be quite inspirational, an example, understanding, to stand under and support. Nothing, no-thing, think that's probably my favourite. Going back the ways is even more exciting, recently read that the origin of the word Israel is formed in three parts, 'Is', apparently comes from Is Is, or Isis, the feminine deity of Egypt, 'ra' somewhat unsurprisingly from 'Ra' the male deity and 'El' from, if I remember correctly Ela to Ala now Allah.
 
T

thefreeprisoner

Guest
Wow what an awesome thread.
Jody I have been curious about your story and now, thanks to 'the incident' (as a LOST fan I can't help referring to it as that in my head) which caused the creation of this space for spiritual discussions, I have been able to read it.

My spiritual journey has been a major rollercoaster. I think some of my darkest spiritual times have been recently while I was sick, and I found myself seriously doubting God's existence, and was angry and fed up, especially about endless prayers I had prayed that God seemed to refuse to say yes to. I still find myself angry about the fact that I am substantially better, while a good friend of mine has been sick with ME for over 10 years and... why me and not him?

I used to be a very strident evangelical/charismatic, and pretty judgemental too. Over the years God has taught me a little bit of humility... and I have wandered into the post-evangelical zone.

I hold some pretty controversial views which might well get me ejected from some churches. I once asked a prominent theologian who had been invited to dinner at my family's house if Jesus had wet dreams. (!!argh!! Can't imagine doing that now. Oh to be a teenager again...)

Like you, Jody, a few years ago I started thinking seriously about the concept of hell and decided to read through the whole of the Newer Testament with blinkers off and eyes open, to see what I found. And actually it seemed so different to what I had been taught. Same with heaven. My perspective totally changed. I no longer believe in any kind of eternal torment... I think what I've patched together, and the only thing that (to my addled brain, at least) seems consistent with everything taught is a variation on conditional immortality. Although I love 'the Great Divorce' by C S Lewis.

I have also been considering how many people other religions in the Older Testament from are used by God to speak to Israel, and how this gets skirted around a bit by church leaders.

I think in terms of theology I am probably closest to Shane Claiborne, Rob Bell, Brian McLaren... that crowd of rabble-rousing newcomers. If you haven't read it, I very much recommend 'Velvet Elvis' by Rob Bell.

Speaking of churches which 'just don't understand' I think it's very hard to really know what it's like to have ME... until you get it. I know I certainly didn't. My church have been incredibly supportive... and I am soooo grateful for that.

Rachel xx
 

JT1024

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
Massachusetts
Just found this thread...

... and I'm glad!

Too soon for me to post since I've started reading at the beginning and I can only read a little at a time.

freeprisoner...I know what it is like to have an "incident" but in your case, look what it started!

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far... I'm enjoying reading. I can relate to much of what I've read so far.

Keep posting! ~ JT
 

RestingInHim

Realist
Messages
159
Location
Riverside, CA, USA
kudos

Rachel,

Kudos to you for searching for answers in God's word instead of just reading others' interpretations. In my way of thinking, it only makes sense to interpret feelings, experiences, and thinking through the word of God, rather than the other way round.

I'm not familiar with the theologians you referred to, so am will interested to check them out. Theology is my greatest interested.

So glad you brought new life to this thread. It died after it was becoming a debate. It was helpful to me to hear other's journeys and be able to comment. I appreciate an open forum where we can share and comment without judgment, so I'm grateful the moderators are there to keep it that way.

Thanks!
still resting...in Him
 

RestingInHim

Realist
Messages
159
Location
Riverside, CA, USA
Rachel, duh...yes...have heard of Brian McLaren...and had read an article re: Shane Claiborne, but didn't connect with the name...going to have to go back and read i again. i'm curious about the "emergent church" movement, so thanks for mentioning them. tough to keep up with it all. i did see one of the nooma dvds. i'm obviously not of the younger generation, so didn't connect with it very well, but love to hear how God is moving in new ways!

not sure how much of my spiritual journey i shared on this thread when it first started, so will go back and check...and update. just want to keep this going!
 

MEG

Senior Member
Messages
242
Location
Asheville, NC
I just found this thread tonight......and what a blessing it is that Jody started it. I hope you don't mind me joining....I will be reading from the beginning to get up to speed.
That will take awhile.
Please just know this is an answer to prayer for me.
 

RestingInHim

Realist
Messages
159
Location
Riverside, CA, USA
I just found this thread tonight......and what a blessing it is that Jody started it. I hope you don't mind me joining....I will be reading from the beginning to get up to speed.
That will take awhile.
Please just know this is an answer to prayer for me.

hi meg!

so glad to see you here! as you can see....there's not much activity here lately, so hope your interest sparks new involvement. we hit a bit of wall when it veered toward a debate...but thanks to our moderator who kept us all on track!

i pray these entries bless you!

struggling to rest fully...
 

MEG

Senior Member
Messages
242
Location
Asheville, NC
LAST NIGHT___After some amount of time reading away, I got the urge to pray. I got into bed, and visualized God's healing light on all those I was praying for. Today I got the answer to a huge life decision!~God is great.
Off to pray some more~but why do we/God allow the dry spells? :(
So thankful for this forum
RestingInHim~ I will pray for you tonight and for all of us
 

RestingInHim

Realist
Messages
159
Location
Riverside, CA, USA
LAST NIGHT___After some amount of time reading away, I got the urge to pray. I got into bed, and visualized God's healing light on all those I was praying for. Today I got the answer to a huge life decision!~God is great.
Off to pray some more~but why do we/God allow the dry spells? :(
So thankful for this forum
RestingInHim~ I will pray for you tonight and for all of us

dry spells lead to strengthened faith and greater intimacy with God. sometimes He withdraws the sense of His presence to cause us to learn to trust Him and continue to seek Him without it. then, in my experience at least, He makes Himself known very personally. He prunes the fruitful branch in order to produce even more fruit.

thanks so much for your prayers!
resting better
 

Martlet

Senior Member
Messages
1,837
Location
Near St Louis, MO
Meg

RestingInHim spoke some very wise words. The greatest saints have experienced some very arid spells. Did you know that Mother Teresa experienced one that lasted for decades? It reduced her to private tears at times, yet from within that desert place, she did some great things for the poorest of the poor so, hard as it is, we praise God in spiritual lack as well as during spiritual plenty because it is in these hardest of times that God often does most with us. I will be praying for you during this holy season of Easter.
 
Messages
3
Hi! This is my first time posting anything on this forum. I just found this thread and have spent the last hour reading through it! I wanted to say thanks to everyone who shared their experiences, you've all really encouraged me this morning.

Someone with ME told me that she had prayed every day for God to heal her, but that she had then stopped asking for healing because she decided it was His will that she should suffer. I told her, "No, no! Each morning, pray for healing and then each night, if you are still sick, just know that it was God's will for you for that one day. Then do it the next, and the next."

And thanks Martlet for this reminder. I have been struggling with this very issue!

Nice to meet you all!:Retro smile:
 

Martlet

Senior Member
Messages
1,837
Location
Near St Louis, MO
Missmilki - So glad you finally posted. I see that you joined a couple of months back (and now it has taken me three weeks to welcome you) but hope you will post more.

I think we all wrestle with this. Earlier today, I said to my husband (on a different topic) that life would be much easier if we really, really knew that a given circumstance was God's will, but mostly we can't be sure. Hard, isn't it?
 
Z

Zig

Guest
I don't think I have ever felt more spiritual than when I all could do was feel my every heart beat and hear my every breath.