CFS anaerobic exercise protocol (Staci Stevens): Can anyone explain it?

[river]

Talking about aerobic intolerance: I guess we could probably tolerate some interval training with a fast sprint for 10 seconds and 20 seconds of rest for 5-6 times twice a week. That would at least increase our Vo2max, mine is incredibly low for my age.

 

[Wonko]

why not go the whole hog and advocate Tabata?

(I would strongly advise pwME against this sort of approach to exercise)

 

[river]

Well, Tabata is a 100% effort and must last for at least 30 minutes and the high intensity part is 30 seconds.
I know even healthy people fainted or threw up during the test for the study.
I'm just talking about 2-3 minutes with a slightly intense anaerobic bout (60% effort) of 10 seconds and 20 seconds of rest (10% effort)
I have been suggested this could improve someone Vo2max without tiring him/her.
I think I'm going to try and if I will suffer PEM at least it will be for a good reason: experimenting what might work... I'm going to suffer PEM anyway
for way more irrelevant reasons.

 

[Wonko]

erm no - tabata lasts 4 minutes per cycle - exactly - if it lasts any more you arent doing it correctly - most trained individuals only do 1 cycle a session for several weeks because they literally cant take any more - thats trained individuals - not pwME

the only differences between what your suggesting and tabata is that tabata uses a 20/10 round rather than your 10/20 round and that you suggest 6 rounds rather than the 8 tabata uses

IMO tabata done properly is inadvisable for the general population (at least those parts that arent into regular HIIT) let alone pwME - your slight modifications arent enough to stop the total effect being highly aerobic in what is after all a group of mainly untrained people

I dont care what your charts tell you about energy system recruitment (they are only guides as to an average in healthy indivduals (probably athletes) - not absolutes - and certainly dont tell the whole story for those with impaired energy production/processing/utilisation setups) - if you can do what your suggesting without getting seriously out of breathe then I'd be amazed - and if your getting out of breathe then your primarily stressing an aerobic energy system not an anaerobic one

btw sprinting implies more than a 60% effort - sprinting is by definition running as fast as you can - not just above half as fast as you can - and 10 seconds is a long time at that sort of effort - in my much younger days I could run 100m in 10.8s - so I know what sort of effort is involved in sprinting for that length of time - I certainly couldnt have done it 6 times with only a 20 sec break in between - and that was when I was young, fit and in regular training - long before M.E.

edit - informed experimentation can be a good thing - I've done enough of it - but as I may have subtly indicated I suspect this may be too abitious for anyone with ME - just be careful - very careful - ok?

 

[BrightWorld]

I wonder if you actually turned the exercise in a long intense aerobic session if you used very small weights and long sets and reps or maybe if you used circuits or something like this. Free weights should be heavy enough that you can do 8 reps and fo to failure at the 10th. Lifting should be fast and lowering (actually the most important aspect of the exercise) should be a little slower but overall one rep should take very little time, with proper form and good coordination. A set should be completed very quickly and there should be lot of rest afterward.

A good alarm to me is how I feel when I wake in the morning.
I know and this seems to be the case for others with CFS too, that if I wake up feeling tired then my whole day is doomed and I will feel tired in the afternoon and evening too. I have a theory about sleep too. The less I sleep the better I feel. When I go to bed late because of insomnia and I'm forced to wake up after just 4 hours because of telephone or door bell ringing, I actually feel a lot better. When I sleep 12 hours in a row I feel terrible.
My understanding is that the same energy-production defect in the mithocondria prevents normal rest energy production and blood sugar level balance at night.
The longer I sleep the longer the body is deprived of energy and glucose.

River,

Despite 20+ years of moderate to severe CFS, I've continued to exercise and go through the misery of PEM. Why? Because I've found that the worse shape I'm in, the easier it is to set off a round of PEM. So, it's a damned if you do or don't situation. It was impossible for me to exercise during the first few years of my illness, but since then, it's been on and off, more on (with a lot of misery) than off.

Some background: I was an avid exerciser before I got sick and I had a lot of experience with exercise physiology and nutrition. That has helped over the years, but only recently (within the last 6 months) have I found a path that mostly avoids PEM. PEM for me is defined as a worsening of all symptoms (fatigue, cognitive, pain, malaise, etc.) that lasts 2-4 days.

What I currently do:

I do a weight training routine with some stretching, twice a week. I work my whole body (except for my back muscles) with sets of 6 to 8 reps that vary the movement in one to three differing motions in order to avoid fatiguing the muscle (group) too quickly. I rest 2-4 minutes between sets, always waiting until my heart rate has slowed to close to normal before proceeding. So basically, its a 5 minute warm up, 7 sets (about a minute per set of 6 to 18 reps depending on the body part and number of motion variations), then stretching at the end. Each workout takes about 20-25 minutes.

This "style" of anaerobic training works great for me. I got the idea of varying the motions within each set from the methodology used in the original THE FIRM aerobic video, where they combined weight training with aerobics.

Again, I've only recently been able to accomplish and maintain this workout routine without PEM. I've managed this by using the following two supplements:

http://www.jarrow.com/
product.php?prodid=73

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3766221

If you want to try them, use the creatine monohydrate before exercise and the BCAA after and the next day whey you feel soreness or a PEM flare is pending.

I also use the creatine monohydrate every day, now, twice a day, to recharge ATP stores. If I use more than 5-6 grams of creatine monohydrate per day, it will cause a detox reaction.

Generally, what agrees with me is determining an activity tolerance level (an exercise level I want to be at in order to do certain, mostly basic, physical activities without setting off PEM), getting there, and maintaining the same exercise workout (as much as possible) without a lot of variation.

Hope some of this might work for you.

BW

 

[river]

erm no - tabata lasts 4 minutes per cycle - exactly - if it lasts any more you arent doing it correctly - most trained individuals only do 1 cycle a session for several weeks because they literally cant take any more - thats trained individuals - not pwME

the only differences between what your suggesting and tabata is that tabata uses a 20/10 round rather than your 10/20 round and that you suggest 6 rounds rather than the 8 tabata uses

IMO tabata done properly is inadvisable for the general population (at least those parts that arent into regular HIIT) let alone pwME - your slight modifications arent enough to stop the total effect being highly aerobic in what is after all a group of mainly untrained people

I could never do the Tabata, I wouldn't even have enough energy to do the initial 100% effort spring and I have seen videos of people doing Tabata
and they move jerkily in an attempt to force the intensity that high.

Tabata is High Intensity Interval Training but what I have read suggests that Interval Training (alone, without the High Intensity) would increase
one Vo2max and be beneficial for people with endurante intolerance. I have been suggested that even alternating faster walking faster and normal walking would be Interval Training and be beneficial, because it seems that what makes the difference is the alternation not the intensity per se. Tabata, if I'm not wrong, was designed for fat loss but the 100% effort is not necessary for the health aspect of it.

edit - informed experimentation can be a good thing - I've done enough of it - but as I may have subtly indicated I suspect this may be too abitious for anyone with ME - just be careful - very careful - ok?

Thanks, I will
I will just try jogging for 10 seconds and walking super slowly for 20 seconds, in my bedroom for just 2-3 minutes and see what happens.
Usually jogging would make me sick if I turn it into an endurance experience, I want to see whether making it interval training would change something or increase my oxygen capacity.

 

[*GG*]

Staci has written this summary for PWC about the training and this more technical journal paper for physical therapists. From the 1st thread.

does anyone have access to the Journal?

GG

 

[helen41]

I have a hard copy, but my scanner is on the fritz. Do you have a fax, GG?

 

[*GG*]

I have a hard copy, but my scanner is on the fritz. Do you have a fax, GG?

Yes, I have a fax. How many pages is it?

thanks!

 

[helen41]

13pages. If you want to pm me your # I'll send it

 

[anncavan]

Hi all,
I fell into this string about a month or so back, and then decided to take the test. I have started to document my experience (which was a great one I might add). I just posted part 1 today, and hope to get part 2 up in the next few days. It's a lot of info, so will probably go into at least 4 part. In case you're interested...

http://lannieinthelymelight.blogspot.com/2010/11/stevens-protocol-part-1.html

Be well,
anncavan
a.k.a. lannieinthelymelight

 

[Mithriel]

I am very interested in this. Thank you for giving such a detailed description, I will be following your blog.

Mithriel

 

[anncavan]

Thanks Mithriel!
I've added a few more entries. Part 1 on Insurance/costs/the protocol, Part 2 is the test and Part 3 is the preliminary results.

You can access all 3 here: http://lannieinthelymelight.blogspot.com/2010/11/part-3-stevens-protocol.html

Take care!

 

[dannydgm]

Hi all, up until this year I use to go to the gym quite regularly. I would train heavy weights 3 times per week and during this time I'm pretty sure I was dealing with CFS....so here's the big question, was the gym actually helping me?? I've not been to the gym for a year now but miss it like mad but I wonder whether this will make me worse or whether it will actually help. I have heard of some people with CFS mentioning that it helps them feel better...I don't know but would love to hear anyone else's experiences. Thank you all.

 

[Seven7]

Sorry I responded thinking was new thread. I have been trying to increase my AT for 10 years. One of my questions is can you really fix the broken AT.

 

[alex3619]

One of my questions is can you really fix the broken AT.

For ME the evidence, so far, appears to be no. Workwell are focusing on strength and range of motion, because both make energy expenditure easier.

 

[Learner1]

Hi all, up until this year I use to go to the gym quite regularly. I would train heavy weights 3 times per week and during this time I'm pretty sure I was dealing with CFS....so here's the big question, was the gym actually helping me?? I've not been to the gym for a year now but miss it like mad but I wonder whether this will make me worse or whether it will actually help. I have heard of some people with CFS mentioning that it helps them feel better...I don't know but would love to hear anyone else's experiences. Thank you all.

I've been able to exercise throughout my illness, even when I was sleeping 16 hours a day and it's helped me maintain a level of fitness.

Three motivating factors are promoting mitochondrial recycling and proliferation, promoting brain derived neurotropic factor, and avoiding deconditioning.

I'm female and in my mid-50s, but I've exercised all my adult life, which has helped provide a foundation here.

At first, I worked with a rehab PT who put a heart rate monitor on me as I did various exercises. I have POTS, and doing anything raised my heart rate to 135 and its easy to hit 160, which is higher than optimal. But, I became sensitized to how I feel at different heart rates because it to guide my workouts. I don't want to wear a chest strap heart monitor all the time, but it might be useful for others.

My energy varies from day to day, so any form of graded progression is counterproductive. Listening to my body, and exercising at 80% of what I think I can do is the key.

I typically lift weights 4-6 days a week, alternating upper and lower body workouts, and taking a walk 1 or 2 days a week.

In the gym, I use a cardio machine for slow warm-up for 10 minutes, 5 on a bad day and 12-15 if I feel fantastic. Then I sit or lay down for 5-10 minutes.

Then I do a circuit of 2 sets of 6 exercises at weights that are 75% of max. If my heart starts racing, or I feel dizzy, I lay down for 5 minutes, then continue. If its upper body, I do another circuit of 2 sets of 5 exercises.

On days I feel lousy, I stretch.

If, at any point, I feel like I'm not keeping up, I leave immediately.

All of this is preceded by taking hydrocortisone and thyroid, some coffee, and most if the time, some NADH. In my water bottle, I have creatine and BCAAs and exogenous ketones.

Sometimes, I'm in the gym for 25 minutes, sometimes an hour, including all the naps.

I feel better because of it. There are some days I just can't do it, so I don't. 95% of the time, I avoid PEM. And I am slow.

But I honestly believe that doing it is keeping me more able to function over time.

Hope this helps.

 

[frozenborderline]

I've been able to exercise throughout my illness, even when I was sleeping 16 hours a day and it's helped me maintain a level of fitness.

Three motivating factors are promoting mitochondrial recycling and proliferation, promoting brain derived neurotropic factor, and avoiding deconditioning.

I'm female and in my mid-50s, but I've exercised all my adult life, which has helped provide a foundation here.

At first, I worked with a rehab PT who put a heart rate monitor on me as I did various exercises. I have POTS, and doing anything raised my heart rate to 135 and its easy to hit 160, which is higher than optimal. But, I became sensitized to how I feel at different heart rates because it to guide my workouts. I don't want to wear a chest strap heart monitor all the time, but it might be useful for others.

My energy varies from day to day, so any form of graded progression is counterproductive. Listening to my body, and exercising at 80% of what I think I can do is the key.

I typically lift weights 4-6 days a week, alternating upper and lower body workouts, and taking a walk 1 or 2 days a week.

In the gym, I use a cardio machine for slow warm-up for 10 minutes, 5 on a bad day and 12-15 if I feel fantastic. Then I sit or lay down for 5-10 minutes.

Then I do a circuit of 2 sets of 6 exercises at weights that are 75% of max. If my heart starts racing, or I feel dizzy, I lay down for 5 minutes, then continue. If its upper body, I do another circuit of 2 sets of 5 exercises.

On days I feel lousy, I stretch.

If, at any point, I feel like I'm not keeping up, I leave immediately.

All of this is preceded by taking hydrocortisone and thyroid, some coffee, and most if the time, some NADH. In my water bottle, I have creatine and BCAAs and exogenous ketones.

Sometimes, I'm in the gym for 25 minutes, sometimes an hour, including all the naps.

I feel better because of it. There are some days I just can't do it, so I don't. 95% of the time, I avoid PEM. And I am slow.

But I honestly believe that doing it is keeping me more able to function over time.

Hope this helps.

I like this idea. I've gotten worse and almost bedbound recently, but if I make any improvement i'm going to try strength training, which seems better than aerobic (really anaerobic) exercise, at least for this condition. I mean, I used to be a runner and it's a sad thing for me that I can't exercise the way I want to, but maybe at least doing some weights would keep my morale up.

The other activity I am thinking about getting into is target shooting, which isn't really exercise but is one of the only ways I can see of doing something really meditative that gives me a little euphoria and keeps me out of the dumps.