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Wishful

Senior Member
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5,862
Location
Alberta
There was something bothering me about one of those papers, and I finally figured it out. It was a photo of the grounding experiment, with electrodes pasted onto both soles of the subject's feet. Why is that a problem? Well, to me it implies that the researchers don't have any faith in science (or are ignorant of electrostatic theory), since a single grounding connection anywhere on the body would be adequate. It also implies that they do have faith in 'mysteries unknown to science', such as special channels through the body carrying some not-understood energies, with these channels having special access points such as on the soles of the feet. They probably simply accept the points drawn in ancient alternative medicine books as fact, yet ignore basic electrostatics in modern texts.

Their clear lack of understanding of how to set up a proper scientific experiment with controls is even more serious.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,467
since it seemed to have been done to provide an advantageous result for publishing?

there seems to be no null hypothesis, no mention of statistics, no mention of controls, let alone blinded ness, what are the units associated with the number 2.70?

Since energy medicine can actually do real things in bodies and can be helpful its too bad that articles like this imply they are scientific.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,862
Location
Alberta
I came up with another flaw in the theory for earthing. They claim: "that the Earth's surface contains free electrons that can be transferred to human bodies via direct contact, and that these electrons then act as antioxidants that help neutralize free radicals in our bodies".

No, that seems completely wrong. It took me a while to figure it out, since I'm brainfogged and it's been a long time since I studied chemistry, but the reactions in our bodies involve covalent bonds. These do not involve free electrons; they involve shared electrons. Two (or more) atoms get close enough to share electrons; it does not involve free electrons at all. Free radicals will be completely unaffected.

There are also ionic bonds in body chemistry, but those also don't involve free electrons. An acid solution has a net positive charge, but grounding that electrically doesn't 'draw free electrons from the earth to neutralize the charge' I can't think of any chemical reactions that change if they're connected to a negative or positive charged source. Batteries involve electron flow, but those chemical reactions also are unaffected by static charges.

I won't claim that people can not be affected in some way by earthing, but the claimed theories for how it works are badly flawed. At least two of their claims are completely wrong (static charges entering the body, and body chemistry being affected by static charges).
 

GlassCannonLife

Senior Member
Messages
819
I came up with another flaw in the theory for earthing. They claim: "that the Earth's surface contains free electrons that can be transferred to human bodies via direct contact, and that these electrons then act as antioxidants that help neutralize free radicals in our bodies".

No, that seems completely wrong. It took me a while to figure it out, since I'm brainfogged and it's been a long time since I studied chemistry, but the reactions in our bodies involve covalent bonds. These do not involve free electrons; they involve shared electrons. Two (or more) atoms get close enough to share electrons; it does not involve free electrons at all. Free radicals will be completely unaffected.

There are also ionic bonds in body chemistry, but those also don't involve free electrons. An acid solution has a net positive charge, but grounding that electrically doesn't 'draw free electrons from the earth to neutralize the charge' I can't think of any chemical reactions that change if they're connected to a negative or positive charged source. Batteries involve electron flow, but those chemical reactions also are unaffected by static charges.

I won't claim that people can not be affected in some way by earthing, but the claimed theories for how it works are badly flawed. At least two of their claims are completely wrong (static charges entering the body, and body chemistry being affected by static charges).

I assume the theory is based on the type of electron flow that is observed in metals, but I too find it very difficult to stomach.

@Iknovate , I had a look at that first paper you linked that @Wishful was discussing. I agree with what Wishful said regarding the quality of the study and just wanted to add a few things.

The authors declare funding from "Earth FX Inc" at the end, a company that sells earthing products. While this is a declared conflict of interest, it is something to consider.

Re experimental design, they have one test group and are doing repeat measures on the same patients. While this is fine, the timing and the fact that it is a finger prick of blood makes it seem that the people conducting the experiment would have no way of clearly blinding the tests - ie they have to measure soon after the sample is taken as it will dry up and the cells will die. It would have been a superior design to at least split the subjects into an experimental and control group at random, and have the person measuring blinded to the group of the subject. It would furthermore have been better to include 10 in each group, but considering the extreme difference they measured, they would likely have achieved statistical significance with an n of 5.

It would also have been better if they had two (or three) assessors measuring each sample, and then they should take the average of the two measurements. These would swap orders with each subject to reduce effects of measuring order.

They used a set value for blood viscosity for their zeta potential calculation, based on a single citation. This is a little ridiculous, considering that the reason they are doing the test is largely to demonstrate a difference in viscosity.. It would have been far better to simply cannulate the subjects and draw a vial of blood at each time point. The viscosity of the blood could then be directly measured using a rheometer.. They could then not only provide a true viscosity measurement for each subject before and after, but they could calculate zeta potential based on the actual viscosity of each sample. This would have made their conclusions far more solid.

I, however, doubt that they would have found the same result doing this. I do wonder if they purposefully excluded such a measure because they suspected the effect would not be conserved between assays.

I did not look over the other studies that you linked. I think it's important to remember that sometimes reading the abstract is not enough, and you have to dig into the details.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
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16,071
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Second star to the right ...
I think it's important to remember that sometimes reading the abstract is not enough, and you have to dig into the details.
I agree, altho the abstract can at least tell you if you really want to expend the extra energy.

One of the first things I look at is the 'Affiliations' declaration, then 'Conflicts of Interest', the 'Author's Declaration(s)', then 'Copyright and License Information'. It' surprizing how much really .... interesting.... information those categories can yield.

If they all pass the smell test, then digging into the study or research paper may repay the drain of energy and focus it will cost me. Cause those things aren't the easiest read. At least for me. But then, I barely passed biology and chem.


Much as I believe in the amazingness of the natural world, Ive always found the claims fir 'earthing' a bit suspect, while trying to keep an open mind.

One of the reasons I find the claims for it so .... uhhhhhh, interesting is that it was a primary belief of some ancient Celtic cultures that you couldnt commune with either the Gods or Spirits unless your bare feet were digging into the ground, which may have been where clever entrepeneuyrs got their ideas from.

And of course, when they came out with expensive 'earthing' mats in various sizes and extraordinary prices ("Suitable for use in apartments, on airplanes, on rooftops..."), it became harder to be less skeptical ....

But, like so many others, I really want to be a believer in 100 impossible things before breakfast (Winnie the Pooh) .... I'm just not sure how much I'm willing to sacrifice for the privilege .....
 

Iknovate

Senior Member
Messages
129
Uncontrolled for other variables, my recovery data (via Whoop), has improved considerably (far more Green days, compared to high Yellow and Red distributions). I also need far less 'pain management' interventions.

Again, with too many other changing variables, I can't succinctly attribute the changes to the mat, but I can't not either.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,071
Location
Second star to the right ...
Again, with too many other changing variables, I can't succinctly attribute the changes to the mat, but I can't not either.
That's what keeps me hangin' in. You just never know ....

I keep on with stuff that I'm not sure is contributing anything major, because I'm really not sure.... I am sure, however, that I want to keep the improvement I've experienced, so I'll keep on keeping on because, fear ad uncertainty ....

This illness, this niggling little nasty bean-counter of an illness, is a profound mystery, so if something seems to be beneficial, and if it's affordable, I'm all for hanging in with it until there's good reason not to ...

And your honesty and directness in evaluating what may or may not be doing what you think it's doing is refreshing.
 

GlassCannonLife

Senior Member
Messages
819
Uncontrolled for other variables, my recovery data (via Whoop), has improved considerably (far more Green days, compared to high Yellow and Red distributions). I also need far less 'pain management' interventions.

Again, with too many other changing variables, I can't succinctly attribute the changes to the mat, but I can't not either.

That's interesting. Over what time frame did you notice the changes? Could you stop using your mat for a time and see if you notice any worsening (outside of placebo of course, might be hard to determine).
 

Iknovate

Senior Member
Messages
129
That's interesting. Over what time frame did you notice the changes? Could you stop using your mat for a time and see if you notice any worsening (outside of placebo of course, might be hard to determine).
The changes were nearly immediate. I actually got three different comparisons. I started with a small mat (2 for less than $100 and gave one to my Mom). The results lessened my pain but the results were better when I got the full bed (mattress and pillow) covers. Results improved again when I removed the covers (so hot in the summer, I removed the pillow case and bottom sheet on top of the black materials. I sleep directly on them.

I have had some nights with unidentified nerve pain (random, only twice, once likely diet induced). The more I could keep the inflamed area in direct contact with the mat, the better. So it's not a panacea. It doesn't solve for everything. I still am sore getting up in the morning and my sleep isn't improving at all. I rarely get more than 6 hours of sleep when the Whoop insists I needed more than 9 hours. My sleep need was only lower last night because I got 1.5 hours in a nap yesterday. But I used to get one green day a month if I was lucky.
Screenshot_20210728-061956_WHOOP.jpg
Screenshot_20210728-062005_WHOOP.jpg
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,862
Location
Alberta
I am sure, however, that I want to keep the improvement I've experienced, so I'll keep on keeping on because, fear ad uncertainty ....

This thread brings to mind something I read about feeding a cat. When the cat heard the sound of the can opener, it would run to the kitchen, slide on the slippery floor, bonking its head on the cabinet. Then it would hold its head over the bowl, resulting in the food bouncing off its head into the dish. The poor cat just wouldn't consider doing anything else, because that's what always worked before to make food appear in the dish. :)

@Iknovate , if you really want to test whether the earthing (electrical connection to ground) is responsible, install a switch between the mat wire and ground, and have someone switch it each night without telling you which way it is. A computer-controlled switch and randomizing software would work too. Some additional steps are needed to make it a proper double-blind experiment, but I can't think clearly right now.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,071
Location
Second star to the right ...
The poor cat just wouldn't consider doing anything else, because that's what always worked before to make food appear in the dish. :)
That's a pretty triffling dismissal of each of our particular choices in finding ways to deal with this crappy little fishhook of an illness, but I'm sure you didn't mean it to be as insulting as it seems at first glance :cautious::cautious::cautious: ....


In that same vein, here's another ...

///////////////////////////////////////////

Once upon a time, there was a lab that was using gorillas (I know, I know .... just go with it) in a series of behavioural experiments.

One day, one of the scientists walked into the gorilla room with a large hand of bananas, climbed up to the top of a sort of conical/round, stepped pyramid they'd placed in the center, and set the bananas down on the top platform, then climbed down the steps and walked out, locking the door behind him..

There was a moment of silence, the gorillas looked at each other, and then up at the bananas, and the biggest gorilla started racing toward the conical structure and climbing it, followed immediately by all the others.

The scientists, watching from the outside, immediately opened the water jets and blasted them unceremoniously onto the ground.

A week or so later, one of the gorillas was moved to another lab, and a new gorilla was introduced to the group, and another hand of bananas was placed simultaneously on the top platform of the pyramid.

As soon as the lab guys locked the door, the gorillas made a mad dash for the top platform, and once again, the lab guys blasted them off of it with the full-force water jets, scattering them across the floor.

The next week, a new gorilla was introduced, the bananas were placed at the top, the scientists waited, but this time, no one but the new gorilla started up the pyramid, and was promptly dragged down of off it and firmly thumped by the other ones, and since no banana banditry had taken place, no water jets were turned on.

And then one day a new gorilla was introduced, and this time no bananas were placed on the pyramid. But the regular residents grabbed the new guy and gave him a through thumping anyway.

And this happened again and again and again. New gorilla, no bananas, solid thumping from the regulars, then peaceful coexistence thereafter til the next new guy..

Finally, one of the gorillas who'd been part of the group for the last several pointless pummelings but hadn't been around when the bananas were routinely placed on the top of the pyramid with the arrival of every new member, followed by the high-powered water jettings, turned to the gorilla next to him and said, "Hey man, what's up with pounding all the new guys? I mean, every single one?"

"I dunno dude, it's just the way we've always done it."

///////////////////////////////////////////

EDIT .... typos, cohesion ...
 
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Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,862
Location
Alberta
That's a pretty triffling dismissal

No, it wasn't meant to be insulting. It's just that people, including myself, get locked into habits and forget to reevaluate them occasionally. How long did I take cumin every 3 days after I no longer actually needed it? I don't know, but when I did do a test of how I reacted without it, I found that I no longer needed it. The same happened with LDN. I expect there are quite a few people here who continue to take treatments that are no longer working for them. Likewise for avoidance of things: I occasionally check things that I knew made my symptoms worse, to see whether I still needed to avoid them. Some I've lost the problems with.

I think a lot of people don't realize the value of rechecking habits occasionally. Habits are things we don't think about.

"The main difference between habits and routines is how much aware and intentional you are. ... Both habits and routines are regular and repeated actions, but habits happen with little or no conscious thought, whereas routines require a higher degree of intention and effort."
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,071
Location
Second star to the right ...
I think a lot of people don't realize the value of rechecking habits occasionally. Habits are things we don't think about.
Excellent points, and I couldn't agree more.

You've also reminded me that I've been on auto pilot on some stuff for way too long, and need to find the energy and brain cells to double check ad possibly re-evaluate ...

Really good post @Wishful ....
 
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