Carnivore Diet for ME?

[ChrisD]

After a year of Paleo, and now four months of Ketogenic Diet (with a few slip ups) I am certainly improving very gradually and can really understand the benefits of the Keto diet by not feeling inflamed and having my PEM largely reduced, slightly more energy before exertion, improved balance and coordination issues, general feeling of being more resilient to triggers and generally feeling stronger.

But despite seeing these improvements, I am becoming aware of just how much time and effort it is going to take to ''Heal'' my body with this diet amongst other things (probiotics, methylation protocol and so on), and maybe that is not even possible?! but I am heading in the right direction slowly.

ANYWAY, recently i have been made aware of a community of people online led by Dr. Shawn Baker (seriously macho american dude) who are using a ZC - Zero carb or Carnivore diet to either move from baseline health to elite physicality or from illness to baseline and beyond. This diet consists of eating just eggs, butter, meat and fish with some exceptions.

The fascinating thing is that it seems to be working for many people with autoimmune and neurological conditions, and to me it now makes total sense if many illnesses are gut-derived in the sense that the microbiome is disturbed. Our standard diet (Even Paleo, or Keto) continues to feed the gut with various fibres that can just feed pathogenic bacteria or overgrowths.

I am almost totally convinced because I know how different i feel when I eat Keto with some vegetables and other potentially inflammatory foods and when I have a day that I just drink a bulletproof coffee, eggs for lunch and say a Steak for dinner (with maybe a small amount of veg). Essentially I have been weaning myself on to the ZC Carnivore diet, which initially seems quite crazy! but I think after a few months of Ketogenic it is not such a shock for the mind or the body.

Baker's suggestion is that we should go ZC for a couple of months to clear up inflammation, allow the body to heal a bit, then at this stage maybe reintroduce some things to see how you get on.

We are surrounded by an overwhelming about of information at the moment in the media, and also popular culture which is moving towards a plant-based vegan or vegetarian diet but it feels quite paradoxical when that way of eating makes you feel terrible (in my experience) and reintroducing meat helps you become stronger and improved in health. Obviously everybody is different, and varying microbiomes mean the people can tolerate different things. i think for someone without ME that a plant based diet might be totally beneficial if their gut microbiota is good.

*Disclaimer* I don't want to offend any vegans! I'm just working with my body...

Here's a tweet that led me to start considering this WOE:

''
Elsie Russell‏@virtuelsie
FollowFollow @virtuelsie
More
Replying to @SBakerMD
(62 yrs.) Paleo 3/4 yrs, good but now Carni+eggs from Aug 1/17 and ALL symptoms improved: neuro (MS)100% remission, sinus gone, GI, old injuries/improved, 17 BMI, lean w/16% BF w/muscle, youthful skin, better nails, teeth, 100% more (positive) energy. MEAT HEALS! THNX!''

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/941551546990460928

 

[Seven7]

Since protein raised my uric acid, I do better w balance paleo. I think we all are different and each diet will do better based on our genetics and needs.

 

[Bansaw]

Protein also raised my uric acid and really overworked my kidneys, and my kidney function went down to borderline. Also what happened was my blood sugar went up which it never had done before, and this aspect was a shock. This is after just three months of my very low card, high meat diet, my body was complaining to me. I think it was releasing cortisol to glean glucose from my muscles because it was getting no energy from carb. (I excluded even rice & potatoes etc).
This is a danger of a low carb diet. My body was not tricked into burning fats for energy, so it went to my muscles.

My wife had Lupus and she found the diet very helpful.
Everyone is different, but my experience is a warning to monitor yourself regularly.

 

[E.man]

Immunologist said the same as OP.

Was feeling better but came down with other major problem.

Also there's no comfort food and with all the ME problems some 'relief ' is welcome.

 

[jpcv]

@ChrisD , I´ll study this diet, I´m doing a low carb, gluten free diet, but with lots of protein and vegetables.It was the only thing that helped me a bit.
Probiotics+ Kefir: not very helpful.
I started a month of methylation, so far no change at all
I think it´s not possible to heal our disease with diet, for some people it can help a lot, but for many patients it doesn´t make any difference.

 

[jpcv]

how is your intestine doing, constipated?

 

[knackers323]

@ChrisD what does a whole meat diet do the biodome? And wouldn’t the diet miss a whole heap of nutrients and vitamins? Guess it’s no supposed to be used long term.
You ever had your gut bio tested?

 

[Diwi9]

I've gone keto and am down 17 lbs. Improvements in cognitive functioning and reduced IBS. One major drawback has been insomnia...it's really out-of-control.

Interestingly, I had been vegan for about 6 years when I initially came down with ME.

 

[gregh286]

hi chris,
yea i am one of those who symptoms have direct correlation to type of food ingested. quite a lot of CFS men seem to be like that.
Had 4 quality street last night (yeah i know, but discipline sometimes gets you caught out).....wretched this morning.
same with beer and cider, great on it, 12-48 hours after the session ends is a no show.
MSG? Forget it,,,,chinese foods, pot noodles, leaves me a mess.
I dont know how to phrase it, but it seems my body seems to shut down energy cycle when i try to add artificial sugar, (as opposed to body converting glucose from carb food), seems to know that this is "poisonous" sugar (energy drinks, sweets, choc, MSG, stir in sauces, sugar alcohol, diluting juice, concentrated breakfast juice, jelly, etc, etc).

tbh, i pretty mild CFS now, 80+ on the bells, but still strive for the remainder.

i must get more strict/paleo on myself again to see where it leads me, i do eat pretty clean mostly, but I do eat many carbs...

 

[ChrisD]

@Bansaw Thank you, maybe it is more MS and Lupus that could benefit from this diet. How do you test for Uric acid? do you pay out for OATs?

@E.man Since doing Keto I have really lost the craving for sweets or comfort food, I've had to adapt to that food for function attitude, just because I so clearly react to things.

@jpcv Glad you are doing quite well too, I agree, really the diet is just a management technique. No constipation at all, I seem to cycle week by week between one a day in the morning after breakfast (when i am having more fat and meat) and three times a day after each meal if I am having more fibre - all well formed and comfortable to pass. i think the Probiotics help a lot with that too.

@knackers323 I thought the same at first too, that the microbiome would suffer and we wouldn't get the right nutrients. I think the idea is that if we cut out fibre for a while then we will take out the negative bacteria and somehow strengthen the beneficial and eradicate dysbiosis, so that when we slowly add things back in, we will be more tolerant and it won't cause so much inflammation. I am planning to get a stool test again soon to compare to last year after Keto and Carnivore days. Last year I had a large growth of Alistipes which is witnessed in ME patients, my initial concern was that it thrives on animal fat and make grow even more but I have the gut feeling that this is not the case.

@Diwi9 I've had a few problems with sleep too in the adaptation weeks, have you tried using a lot of Electrolyte powder or Himalayan pink salt to up your salts? Also good doses of vitamin C help me.

@gregh286 I didn't know that the food reaction/trigger thing was common in ME men, that's interesting.

 

[Diwi9]

@ChrisD - Yes, I'm using electrolytes, which really helped with the transition into ketosis. I have not tried Vitamin C, but will do so based on your tip. Thank you!

 

[erin]

I had to go gluten free a year ago and dairy free 6 months ago. I am a stone lighter but I had a lot of GI issues last summer. Now I am better absorbing nutrients, my B12 is normal for the first time in years without injections.

I eat some carbs, non refined sugars ( small amounts), some green vegetables, lean red meat and a lot of fish. I don't feel I'm deprived of anything. I still am low in the energy and cognitively going downhill. But my horrible GI problems are gone.

 

[Folk]

Was about to create this thread when I saw yours. Thankfuly you did it, cause I'd do a pretty wrose job

I'm in a similar situation, Keto for some time, and now trying the carnivore road. It kinda makes perfect sense for me from everything I read/watched.

Even though I'm trying not to be bought so easy. I'm no a specialist so it's easy to sell these strange diets, if you watch all diets on the youtube, they all make "valid points based on studies" which I can't even tell if are real but anyway.

Let's not forget that the same FDA that recomends 30g fibers a day is the one that made that bizarre pyramid with bread being our primary source of energy, which lead to the obesity epidemic we're living.


Things to consider:

• The claim about VITAMIN C is we almost don't need it when not consuming carbohydrates since the glucose takes the same path as Vitamin C, competing inside the body, so for example: a cup of orange juice is packed with both sugar and Vit C but they annul each other. That's why people in carnivore diet for years or decades don't die from scurvy (as it was expected in the first small studies).
• Take a look at this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/bodybuilding/comments/7ihqaj/something_different_vince_gironda_a_1950s/
• Not trying to start a battle here: but being vegan got me to the severe side of this illness. That was 3 years ago, when I develop fructose malapsorption and developed (or increased) my SIBO to levels I became homebound. Since then I recovered a looooooot in this last 3 years, but some how, a week from now I start having a small relapse, I think it's not getting worse now though.

how is your intestine doing, constipated?

I've been constipated in all kinds of diets. No matter how much fiber I consumed still constipated.
Now I'm 3 days in this diet and had diarrhea... Strange to say the least and cetainlly not optimal but they say that's a common side effect in the begining.

 

[Runner5]

This is an interesting thread - am curious about results.

 

[ChrisD]

I'm in a similar situation, Keto for some time, and now trying the carnivore road. It kinda makes perfect sense for me from everything I read/watched.

Even though I'm trying not to be bought so easy. I'm no a specialist so it's easy to sell these strange diets, if you watch all diets on the youtube, they all make "valid points based on studies" which I can't even tell if are real but anyway.

Let's not forget that the same FDA that recomends 30g fibers a day is the one that made that bizarre pyramid with bread being our primary source of energy, which lead to the obesity epidemic we're living.

Love your reply, thanks @Folk . Mentally I haven't quite had the cajones to switch into Carnivore yet but by phasing in near Carni days, I am learning that I really do feel best then and I'm almost programming myself into desiring that good feeling.

I just feel like it is a really honest diet, no-one can really profit from the carnivore diet other than farmers and I don't think they are involved in this movement. Unlike with other diets such as the huge push for Plant-based, raw, vegan diets in films such as ''What the Health'' which demonise fats but impart that sugars are completely fine - a bit suspicious to me, I think it may have even been debunked as sponsored by BIG FOOD industries to protect the sugar business i.e. cheap production, high mark-up, big profit and definitely no care for peoples health. Not to mention that health problems then drive up the demand for pharmaceutical drugs - call me a cynic or a conspiracist

I've come across this blog by Mikhaila Peterson (Daughter of slightly controversial yet fascinating Jordan Peterson) she has healed her Depression, Rheumatoid Arthritis and other inflammatory diseases with ZC or Carnivore http://mikhailapeterson.com/

My only concern with this diet is the idea that the microbiome could adapt to always only eating these foods and if anything intolerances to plants and grains etc. could increase. Are we signing up to a lifetime of Carnivory?

 

[Folk]

I've come across this blog by Mikhaila Peterson (Daughter of slightly controversial yet fascinating Jordan Peterson) she has healed her Depression, Rheumatoid Arthritis and other inflammatory diseases with ZC or Carnivore http://mikhailapeterson.com/

!!!
I came across this in the start of my research too.

I kinda follow Jordan Peterson (admire his courage, and intelligence. Agree with a lot of his stuff. Not so fan of his body language and comunication skills, which would be really important for the battle his trying to fight. In other words he seems weak but try to look tough. But getting way off topic here haha).

There's an old video of him saying he takes welbutrin and another anti depressant which you wouldn't expect of a guy like him (he even says that on the video) who claims so much control over his own life. And his daughter share something in her site that her dad is also going that route, not letting veggies go yet, but feelling way better too.

My only concern with this diet is the idea that the microbiome could adapt to always only eating these foods and if anything intolerances to plants and grains etc. could increase. Are we signing up to a lifetime of Carnivory?

I really never thought about that... But it makes some sense, I guess. I've always thought the other way arround though. I've developed fructose malabsorption while eating to much fruits. In the last year or so I wasn't being able to tolerate coffee and dark chocolate, or even some teas anymore (even though I could tolerate them on my worst phase of this disease).

After going fully keto I start being able to tolerate both coffee and dark chocolate again. But now, as I mentioned before in this thread I had some kind of small crash (which I think thankfully) is getting better but I'm not sure what I can relate too. My best bet is my increase of Nuroprotek intake which I though was harmless but I've read people here who couldn't tolerate even 1 capsule.

Your concern is because our biome is messed up or do you mean that for anybody who tries this diet?

 

[kelly8]

My only concern with this diet is the idea that the microbiome could adapt to always only eating these foods and if anything intolerances to plants and grains etc. could increase. Are we signing up to a lifetime of Carnivory?

I know dr Weston price had found societies that lived entirely on meats, seafood and fats. I'm currently reading the nourishing traditions cookbook and have been really interested in the studies he found on primitive societies. I was doing mostly Paleo which helped my gut a ton. I've also been rotating different probiotics to try to rebuild my gut flora in a more positive way. All in all it has helped.

In the cookbook they suggest lots of grassfed butter, meats, cultured dairy (i use mostly goat because i have problems with a lot of cow dairy), and cod liver oil. It is supposed to help increase your vitamin a and d and help with different amino acids. They also suggest eating organ meats which is hard for me. I found a meatloaf recipe that included liver that i can tolerate but that is about it.

 

[E.man]

Was advised to start Carnivore and then gradually introduce some Veg that amounted to the Keto diet.

I def. lost extra weight I had when on Carno. Didn't feel too bad either. Personally I found Carno. a bit boring. On the holistic level I really needed to make an effort to stay full Carno. Def. wasn't easy. Noticed I got a taste for more fats in the way of butter.

Organ meat is high in various things but the Supermarket or the Butcher nearest to me have none at all !
Only eating muscle meat is so current culture. It goes along with the high carbo and sugar stuff when the body naturally would break down fats for energy.

 

[Folk]

I know dr Weston price had found societies that lived entirely on meats, seafood and fats. I'm currently reading the nourishing traditions cookbook and have been really interested in the studies he found on primitive societies. I was doing mostly Paleo which helped my gut a ton. I've also been rotating different probiotics to try to rebuild my gut flora in a more positive way. All in all it has helped.

In the cookbook they suggest lots of grassfed butter, meats, cultured dairy (i use mostly goat because i have problems with a lot of cow dairy), and cod liver oil. It is supposed to help increase your vitamin a and d and help with different amino acids. They also suggest eating organ meats which is hard for me. I found a meatloaf recipe that included liver that i can tolerate but that is about it.

Try chicken heart. It's total social conditioning. Here in Brazil chicken heart is expensive and present in any barbecue (I live in the south, Rio Grande do Sul, the place know for it's barbecue along with Uruguay and Argentina) and tastes delicious.

 

[kelly8]

Try chicken heart. It's total social conditioning. Here in Brazil chicken heart is expensive and present in any barbecue (I live in the south, Rio Grande do Sul, the place know for it's barbecue along with Uruguay and Argentina) and tastes delicious.

I'll have to try it. Do you have a good recipe? I'll have to work myself up to it, but i did read that the heart was high in coq10 which some people on here have used to help with energy...