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Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
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linusbert
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,173
most certainly, this is happening for any vitamins! even D and A and K and E .. and also minerals.
B12 metabolism is highly interacting with Biotin, Folate, B12, B6, B2, Iodine, Potassium, Iron. In the long run everything will be hit. the "cofactors" are the first thing, later the cofactors of the cofactors.
but how much this is the case for you nobody can tell. healthy people can take high dose things for decades and the body somehow handles it... some of us chronic sick folks can be derailed by a single high dose.
thats why high dose anything should be accompanied by at least RDA% of everything else, multivitamins, minerals. or have good food supply of those.
B12 metabolism is highly interacting with Biotin, Folate, B12, B6, B2, Iodine, Potassium, Iron. In the long run everything will be hit. the "cofactors" are the first thing, later the cofactors of the cofactors.
but how much this is the case for you nobody can tell. healthy people can take high dose things for decades and the body somehow handles it... some of us chronic sick folks can be derailed by a single high dose.
thats why high dose anything should be accompanied by at least RDA% of everything else, multivitamins, minerals. or have good food supply of those.
datadragon
Senior Member
- Messages
- 400
- Location
- USA
Minerals: Potassium (K), Magnesium (Mg), and Zinc (Zn) as well as Vitamins B1 and C are listed as antagonists of Vitamin B12 so their levels may be affected by a high level of B12.
https://return2health.com.au/articles/vitamin-mineral-antagonists
https://traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Zinc.pdf
https://traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Magnesium.pdf
Zinc uptake is lowered and further becomes unavailable to utilize with ongoing inflammation or infection already and is needed as a glutathione cofactor. In that regard I was finding research that B12 reacts with superoxide when glutathione is depleted (which can happen after inflammation/infection and the lowering of zinc levels also) which would further drain the B12. That seems appropriate as the body is trying to shift into an inflammatory state. B6 also requires zinc and would normally help convert homocysteine toward glutathione production as well. In other words b12 kind of says 'hold my beer' when glutathione goes down and takes the hit in its place to try to help, but gets depleted in the process. Some people may have found benefit using high dose B12 initially for a short time in that early state as a glutathione replacement helping to lower those inflammation levels, but appears would be problematic to rely on that long term as you seem to have.
The body can only use the B12 methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin directly, while all other forms of vitamin B12 must first be converted in the body. The conversion steps involved in this are dependent on the vitamins B2 (riboflavin) and B3 (niacin). The second bioactive form of vitamin B12, adenosylcobalamin, requires biotin (also known as vitamin B7 or vitamin H) and magnesium, in order to fulfill its important role in aiding the function of the mitochondria – the “power stations” of our cells. These may therefore be depleted from high dosing one thing only. https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/sterile-methylcobalamin-powder.90523/post-2441209
https://return2health.com.au/articles/vitamin-mineral-antagonists
https://traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Zinc.pdf
https://traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Magnesium.pdf
Zinc uptake is lowered and further becomes unavailable to utilize with ongoing inflammation or infection already and is needed as a glutathione cofactor. In that regard I was finding research that B12 reacts with superoxide when glutathione is depleted (which can happen after inflammation/infection and the lowering of zinc levels also) which would further drain the B12. That seems appropriate as the body is trying to shift into an inflammatory state. B6 also requires zinc and would normally help convert homocysteine toward glutathione production as well. In other words b12 kind of says 'hold my beer' when glutathione goes down and takes the hit in its place to try to help, but gets depleted in the process. Some people may have found benefit using high dose B12 initially for a short time in that early state as a glutathione replacement helping to lower those inflammation levels, but appears would be problematic to rely on that long term as you seem to have.
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...elp-me-so-much-momentarily.89782/post-2438405
The body can only use the B12 methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin directly, while all other forms of vitamin B12 must first be converted in the body. The conversion steps involved in this are dependent on the vitamins B2 (riboflavin) and B3 (niacin). The second bioactive form of vitamin B12, adenosylcobalamin, requires biotin (also known as vitamin B7 or vitamin H) and magnesium, in order to fulfill its important role in aiding the function of the mitochondria – the “power stations” of our cells. These may therefore be depleted from high dosing one thing only. https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/sterile-methylcobalamin-powder.90523/post-2441209
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Thank you for the insight, this is valuable information which the doc doesn't say. He even wants me to take the injections 4 times a week. Way too much.
Do you by change have any researches/resources which I can read further on the interaction of B12 and biotin and iodine?
Thank you for the insight, that's good to know. Especially when you are low in glutathione, which most of us CFS are. I react badly to any methyl form, I thought this have something to do with my COMT and/or MTHFR mutation.
I have ordered an electrolyte sup and zinc piconolate (have also a b complex minus b12 and folate). I am gonna research biotin further, I do know that it's a sulfur group vitamin which I can't take too much.
Thanks again.
linusbert
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,173
not really, its what i read everywhere, like this forum. also a book from a german doctor named Bodo Kuklinski. https://www.b12oils.com/ has some info but they also sell.
they themselves link those sources:
https://vitaminb12deficiency.info
www.vitaminb12deficiency.net.au
http://b12awareness.org/
http://preventingdementia.org
https://www.understandingautism.com.au
www.vitaminb12deficiency.net.au
http://b12awareness.org/
http://preventingdementia.org
https://www.understandingautism.com.au
doesnt have to be too much. if you have a real deficiency that might make sense. also for other vitamins like vitamin D , super dosing to fill up a deficiency is common.
usually people can tolerate those courses well if they are not sensitive like many in this forum and in the chronic sick community or in refeeding situations are. for normal people imbalances might occur only after a long time like months or years. you need to know for yourself. and discuss this with your doctor.
- Messages
- 70
- Location
- Scandinavia
Have you had any reaction to the b12 at all, good or bad?
If you have "bad reactions" you can go by symptoms and get hints for what you are running low on. In my experience and like @linusbert says, once you get those vitamin b processes going it can use up more ore less any vitamin or mineral or electrolyte.
I've had to triple my intake of pretty much everything in periods along the way to avoid deficiency symptoms of all sorts.
If you are not having deficiency symptoms I would guess that things are running ok. I've never heard or read of any adverse effects of getting too much b12 except for cofactor deficiency. It should be perfectly ok.
If you have "bad reactions" you can go by symptoms and get hints for what you are running low on. In my experience and like @linusbert says, once you get those vitamin b processes going it can use up more ore less any vitamin or mineral or electrolyte.
I've had to triple my intake of pretty much everything in periods along the way to avoid deficiency symptoms of all sorts.
If you are not having deficiency symptoms I would guess that things are running ok. I've never heard or read of any adverse effects of getting too much b12 except for cofactor deficiency. It should be perfectly ok.