Can anyone have regular good sleep without a medication to help?

[keenly]

I wear a Fitbit Versa everyday and night which monitors my sleep and from this it is so obvious for the most part I only get good sleep for a reasonable amount of time which for me is around 6 hours non stop, if I take 1/4 clonazapan before I go to sleep.

This has been going on for years so it's not recent and I should add that I only have one prescription of 30 tablets a year for clonazapan so in no way am I addicted to it. For most nights I just take my usual 25 mg Lyrica which is supposed to help sleep and stop me from waking up but in reality it isn't obviously doing this. I also use GABA which sometimes helps me to go back to sleep but is useless for getting me off to sleep when my brain won't switch off. I don't think my SNPs like COMT ++ help either!

I don't take any caffeine after 3 pm btw and no other stimulants at all at any time.

I have tried low dose melatonin but this makes me dizzy, and I always have some magnesium around 9 pm but that doesn't help.

Therefore I have been wondering if anybody here has been able to achieve good, regular sleep without any medication. I find that any of the B supplements apart from B2 and P5P helping me being able to get off to sleep makes this issue way worse and I am not able to get to sleep at all unless I take a tiny bit of the bento.

Thanks for any comments.

Pam

Your fitbit is interfering with your sleep! Non native EMF is no beuno. It causes calcium to flood into your mitochondria. Calcium overload in the mitochondria is something doctors like Cheney and Myhill have found CFS patients already have.

 

[Wishful]

Non native EMF is no beuno. It causes calcium to flood into your mitochondria.

I expect that's a non-proven hypothesis, probably lacking in actual evidence.

 

[Wishful]

BTW, how can mitochondria tell whether a photon is native or non-native? Do native ones dress differently? AFAIK, a photon is completely described by its energy and vector. From the perspective of biological effects, add in intensity (number of photons/time) and maybe polarization. There's no way to tell whether a burst of EMF is from a natural lightning stroke or from electronic equipment that is mimicking that natural burst.

 

[Jadzhia]

I was a great sleeper for most of my life till I got ill, then it became impossible to get a decent night's sleep, and certainly the idea of waking fully rested became a distant memory. What has improved things for me is taking B2 twice daily, and taking my T3 dose in the early hours of the morning. I usually get my best sleep after that. Although my sleep is not what it used to be, at least I get more undisturbed hours than what I was having with waking every hour or two.

 

[Wishful]

Although my sleep is not what it used to be, at least I get more undisturbed hours than what I was having with waking every hour or two.

Apparently, our sleep goes in cycles where we actually wake up every ~90 minutes, but we aren't aware of waking. A couple of years ago, I started becoming aware of those wakings and having trouble falling back asleep. I thought it was my bladder waking me up, but no, it's just that natural sleep cycle. I discovered that CLAs (conjugated linoleic acids) reduced those wakings. Ruminant fats, Evening Primrose Oil, and safflower oil all work for me. It may not work for everyone, but having a meal of fatty beef or lamb, or buying safflower oil next time instead of your usual cooking oil, is a cheap experiment.

 

[Jadzhia]

Ruminant fats, Evening Primrose Oil, and safflower oil all work for me. It may not work for everyone, but having a meal of fatty beef or lamb, or buying safflower oil next time instead of your usual cooking oil, is a cheap experiment.

Interesting! Unfortunately I don't eat red meat or fatty foods (can't tolerate them) and use safflower oil normally (but not to any great extent, don't do a lot of frying). Worth trying if you can, though.

 

[bertiedog]

Your fitbit is interfering with your sleep!

No that isn't the case as I have been sleeping really well recently and haven't changed anything apart from adding some T3 to my thyroid medication first thing in the morning. It has really helped me to be able to do a bit more and feel a lot better. Although there was some T3 in the natural dessicated thyroid I was taking it obviously wasn't sufficient.

Dare I say it but my migraines are also improved.

Pam

 

[Wishful]

No that isn't the case as I have been sleeping really well recently and haven't changed anything apart from adding some T3

I've been sleeping better recently, and that's without taking T3. Maybe it's the cooler weather (first snow was yesterday) or the shorter daylight hours. Maybe my ME is just playing with me, and plans to whack me with extra insomnia soon.

 

[Gingergrrl]

No that isn't the case as I have been sleeping really well recently and haven't changed anything apart from adding some T3 to my thyroid medication first thing in the morning. It has really helped me to be able to do a bit more and feel a lot better. Although there was some T3 in the natural dessicated thyroid I was taking it obviously wasn't sufficient.

So you are adding extra T3 in addition to taking Armour (or another similar brand of dessicated thyroid med)?

Was your T3 low on blood tests (when you added the extra T3) or was it based on your symptoms? My T3 was at the very bottom of the normal range on my last blood tests but my T4 was below the range and was flagged as too low (in May 2022). I will be repeating the blood tests for my Endo in the next few weeks.

Dare I say it but my migraines are also improved.

That is really great news!

 

[bertiedog]

So you are adding extra T3 in addition to taking Armour (or another similar brand of dessicated thyroid med)?

Was your T3 low on blood tests (when you added the extra T3) or was it based on your symptoms? My T3 was at the very bottom of the normal range on my last blood tests but my T4 was below the range and was flagged as too low (in May 2022). I will be repeating the blood tests for my Endo in the next few weeks.

I became very cold during end of September and also my energy was terrible with it running out so quickly plus my migraines were virtually daily. Also the sleep issue so I realised it had to be my thyroid had taken a nose dive. It was tested via my GP in January when I was having extremely high blood pressure and was put on 80 mg and 60 mg Propananol plus another horrid drug Candersartan which made me feel terrible every time I took it and I am pleased to say I stopped this last month.

My T3 in January was 4.9 with a range of 2.4-6.0 but I knew the Propananol at a high dose would stop my thyroid medication from working and so it has turned out. I am going to do a test hopefully this week but as I have been taking very small amounts of T3 added to just 1/2 grain x 2 and 25 mcg thyroxine its obvious I have needed more T3. I have also been able to drop the Propananol to 20 mg x 2 which is great. I think the thyroid issue would have shown up earlier but for the fact it had been extremely hot for months here in south-east England so I think this masked the issue to a degree.

I have been reading up about T3 and how it gets into the brain in a very short amount of time and I think this is the reason there has been such an improvement in well-being and the migraines. I have recently found copies of the thoughts of Dr John Lowe on the treatment of Hypothyroidism especially regarding T3 and this has been very helpful, illustrating all the cellular effects of T3.

I am waiting for a drug that contains 50 mcg T4 and 12.5 mcg T3 to arrive and I am going to see how I do on that as an alternative to the small amount of NDT etc. If it is successful I will let my GP know but in the UK most GPs still think just T4 is sufficient which in my case is rubbish, it just makes me toxic as I cannot convert it into enough T3 to be effective. When I took just T4 years ago I had hyper symptoms and felt toxic and since having my genetics done I found out I have a SNP that stops the conversion of T4-T3. What a surprise!!!

I am delighed to say that the medication called Bitiron has just arrived and might start another thread once I have given it a trial.

Hope that helps

Pam

 

[Gingergrrl]

My T3 in January was 4.9 with a range of 2.4-6.0 but I knew the Propananol at a high dose would stop my thyroid medication from working and so it has turned out.

My last blood work for my Endo was in May 2022 and my T3 was 2.3 (and the normal range was 2.0 to 4.4) so I was at the bottom of the normal range. My T4 was 0.71 (and the normal range was 0.82 to 1.77) so it was flagged as low by the lab.

What did you mean that Propranolol could stop your thyroid med from working? I have never taken Propranolol but I take a low dose of Atenolol 2x/day.

I think the thyroid issue would have shown up earlier but for the fact it had been extremely hot for months here in south-east England so I think this masked the issue to a degree.

We are still having hot weather here, but even when it is objectively cooler here, I tend to still feel over-heated. I actually cannot remember the last time that I felt cold and it must have been several years ago.

If it is successful I will let my GP know but in the UK most GPs still think just T4 is sufficient which in my case is rubbish

I agree that is total rubbish/ nonsense! Some GP's & Endo's here also believe that but thankfully my Endo doesn't and I have been on Armour thyroid since I first saw him in 2013.

I am delighed to say that the medication called Bitiron has just arrived and might start another thread once I have given it a trial.

How does Bitiron compare to Armour? Also, can you remind me if you have Hashimoto's like me? I know I have asked you this before but cannot remember! For my next blood-work, I asked my Endo if I could re-test the Hashi's autoantibodies (since we have not checked them in several years) and he agreed.

 

[bertiedog]

What did you mean that Propranolol could stop your thyroid med from working? I have never taken Propranolol but I take a low dose of Atenolol 2x/day.

Betablockers like Propananol and Atenolol are used in HYPERthyroidism to stop the reaction of the conversion of T4 to T3 which as you know is the active thyroid hormone that gets into all the cells. Therefore they shouldn't normally be given to HYPOthyroid patients. However in very small doses they are probably ok but will still blunt the response of the thyroid medication to a degree I would think.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6133659/

Previously for 20 years I had been on either 10 mg Propananol twice a day or 20 mg during hot weather and this didn't seem to stop my medication from working but for a good part of that time I was still swinging around a bit going from being underactive to overactivie for short periods of time whilst the antibodies were slowly destroying part of the thyroid gland but to be honest a part of it must still be functioning because I don't need high doses of thyroid medication compared to many people. Of course we are all individuals with individual variations.

How does Bitiron compare to Armour? Also, can you remind me if you have Hashimoto's like me?

Bitiron contains 50 mcg T4 and 12.5 mcg T3 in the tablets I have now got whereas 1 grain of Armour contains 36 mcg T4 and 9 mcg T3 so it can get very complicated working out comparisons of doses especially if only taking half a tablet of either! Yes I do have Hashimotos although the last time I tested antibodies they had dropped to nearly zero after I had gone gluten free for a period time and also switched to plant based milks although I still have a small amout of Gouda cheese and Greek Yoghurt.

I am shortly going to do a full thyroid panel plus B12, folate and ferritin to see if anything has changed but realise that because I have been adding small amounts of T3 to my regime of 1/2 grain x 2 of NDT since 6 October it isn't going to be the full picture but I very much believe in going by how we feel than always relying on blood tests. (Dr Lowe who was a real expert on the workings of the thyroid very much stresses this and blames doctors for their reliance on blood test results especially just going by the TSH which is a useless measurement of whether somebody has underfunctioing thyroid function).

BTW If anybody reading this wanted to know where I have bought the Thyroid S just PM me or the Bitiron.

Good luck Gingergrrl but I really do think you woul benefit from more T3 whether it be in extra Armour or Cytomel looking at those results but of course that is just my opinion. Have you had your genetics done at all through 23andme which might show you also have a conversion issue? You probably know that 23andme don't comment specifically on issues like that but there are other internet companies that you can run your results through which do look more closely at various health topics.

Pam

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

PQQ and Ubiquinol help with both sleep and energy. Berberine seems to increase rest during the night, I can't take it in the day. As others have mentioned, CBD is helpful for resting more fully.

 

[Gingergrrl]

However in very small doses they are probably ok but will still blunt the response of the thyroid medication to a degree I would think.

Thank you for that link re: beta blockers & thyroid and it was really interesting! I take a low dose of Atenolol (12.5 mg) twice a day for POTS and for me the benefit is crystal clear so it's not something that I'd stop.

I was still swinging around a bit going from being underactive to overactivie for short periods of time whilst the antibodies were slowly destroying part of the thyroid gland but to be honest a part of it must still be functioning because I don't need high doses of thyroid medication compared to many people

I would assume that part of your thyroid must be working for you to be on a low dose of thyroid med (and I assume the same thing for me). I did an ultrasound of my thyroid in 2013, and my Endo had me repeat it in 2020, and both times it was normal (visually) on the scan in spite of having Hashimoto's.

I'm never really sure what is considered "low dose" of thyroid med but my daily dose of Armour is 60 mg or "1 grain".

Bitiron contains 50 mcg T4 and 12.5 mcg T3 in the tablets I have now got whereas 1 grain of Armour contains 36 mcg T4 and 9 mcg T3 so it can get very complicated working out comparisons of doses especially if only taking half a tablet of either!

Thanks for that info! Is the 12.g mcg of T3 in Bitiron considered to be significantly more that the 9 mcg in Armour?

Yes I do have Hashimotos although the last time I tested antibodies they had dropped to nearly zero after I had gone gluten free for a period time and also switched to plant based milks although I still have a small amout of Gouda cheese and Greek Yoghurt.

That is great that both of your Hashi's autoantibodies were nearly at zero! I'm curious what mine will be on my blood tests next month and I haven't checked the Hashi's Abs in years. I was gluten free for 6-7 yrs b/c of Hashi's but I do eat some gluten now (although still not a lot). I am not dairy free though.

I am shortly going to do a full thyroid panel plus B12, folate and ferritin

Good luck with this and keep me posted.

BTW If anybody reading this wanted to know where I have bought the Thyroid S just PM me or the Bitiron.

I am going to PM you and just realized that I'm taking this thread off track discussing thyroid issues

Good luck Gingergrrl but I really do think you woul benefit from more T3 whether it be in extra Armour or Cytomel looking at those results but of course that is just my opinion.

I've never taken Cytomel or any thyroid med besides Armour. Do you think Cytomel or increasing my Armour would help me to lose weight? I've lost about 20 lbs but am still 15 to 20 lbs over my ideal weight but cannot lose more weight no matter what I do. I follow a pretty strict diet now just to not gain back the 20 lbs that I lost.

Have you had your genetics done at all through 23andme which might show you also have a conversion issue?

I did 23andMe in 2014 but I literally had no idea what I was doing or how to interpret the results. I showed my results to all of my doctors (at that time) and the two things that everyone said was that I can't process Methyl B-12, and that I have a mutation that stops me from maintaining normal Vitamin D level, and both of those are 100% true in my case.

 

[bertiedog]

@Gingergrrl I will PM you tomorrow to answer the points you have raised.

Pam

 

[Gingergrrl]

I am shortly going to do a full thyroid panel plus B12, folate and ferritin to see if anything has changed but realise that because I have been adding small amounts of T3 to my regime of 1/2 grain x 2 of NDT since 6 October it isn't going to be the full picture but I very much believe in going by how we feel than always relying on blood tests.

I'm going to follow up w/you by PM but I was curious if you got to do the full thyroid panel and other blood tests yet? How are you feeling now with the increased T3 regime?

I got my labs back yesterday and have a phone appt later this week w/my Endo to review them. My TSH is now (almost) in the HYPER-thyroid range, and several other things were flagged as too high including ferritin and Vit D (which is weird)! I am very curious to hear what he is going to advise.

 

[bertiedog]

@Gingergrrl I will get back to you when I have my results of the blood test I did this past Monday. It was a private one through Medicheks and includes B12, ferritin, folate as well as TSH, Free T4 and Free T3.

I have got a foul virus at the moment so feeling very unwell unfortunately. It hasn't been that straightforward for me switching to Bitiron from NDT although I was getting much better energy last week util I got some symptoms of intolerance.

BTW When on any medication that contains T3, your TSH will go low, mine has been <0.5 for 20 years. All this shows is that your pituitary is working well and is not stimulating your thyroid gland to produce more T3. because you are getting enough from your medication and the conversion of T4 - T3. Doctors can be hopeless about this and forget to look at what the actual results of the Free T4 and T3 are. If these are well in range then one CANNOT be hyperthyroid. If one was, then one would be above those ranges and this only happened once to me when I had forgotten I was having the blood test in the morning and took my normal dose of medication 2 hours before. It came back just a bit over range so my GP simple got me to repeat the test on a morning when I hadn't had any medication and it was perfect.

Hope that helps.

Pam x

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Gingergrrl I will get back to you when I have my results of the blood test I did this past Monday. It was a private one through Medicheks and includes B12, ferritin, folate as well as TSH, Free T4 and Free T3.

I'm glad you were able to do the blood tests!

I have got a foul virus at the moment so feeling very unwell unfortunately.

Oh no! That sucks and I hope you are feeling better soon

BTW When on any medication that contains T3, your TSH will go low, mine has been <0.5 for 20 years

I didn't realize that your TSH was below 0.5 for 20 yrs. Mine fluctuates a lot and my Endo tries to keep it below 2.0 (and never above 3.0).

Doctors can be hopeless about this and forget to look at what the actual results of the Free T4 and T3 are. If these are well in range then one CANNOT be hyperthyroid.

I do not know why all of this confuses me so much! For some reason, the endocrine stuff (thyroid & adrenals) confuses me much more than other stuff!

My recent blood tests (with LabCorp) showed that my TSH is 0.7 (range 0.45 to 4.5). My Free T3 is 2.6 (range 2.0 to 4.4) and my Free T4 is 0.89 (range 0.82 to 1.77). And these numbers are with taking 60 mg of Armour each morning (but skipping it on the morning of the blood tests).

If one was, then one would be above those ranges and this only happened once to me when I had forgotten I was having the blood test in the morning and took my normal dose of medication 2 hours before. It came back just a bit over range so my GP simple got me to repeat the test on a morning when I hadn't had any medication and it was perfect.

I always withhold the Armour on the morning of the blood tests (so this was not a potential factor of my results).