Calcium Oxalate

[LaurieL]

Can anyone explain calcium oxalate increases and its relation to methylation or lack there of?

Laurie

 

[determined]

Laurie, you ask really good questions! My belief, substantiated only by my own experience, is that our intestinal microbiome plays a big role in how well we do or do not handle oxalates.

I'm eager to hear from others, but my own tolerance of foods high in oxalates has varied wildly. At times, I haven't been able to tolerate even a bite of something like spinach or I would get a huge increase in pain levels. In the recent past, I am able to handle large quantities of these foods. I have always assumed that my microbiome has changed dramatically.

But perhaps, as you may be suggesting, there is some more complicated interaction between our microbiome and methylation supplements. I will stay tuned to this discussion.

 

[richvank]

Can anyone explain calcium oxalate increases and its relation to methylation or lack there of?

Laurie

Hi, Laurie.

I don't know of a very direct connection, but I'll suggest a circuitous one:

If the methylation cycle is partially blocked, this also disrupts the folate metabolism, because the two are linked together by the methionine synthase reaction. This causes draining of folates from the cells into the blood by the so-called "methyl trap" mechanism. With low folates in the cells, they are less able to make new DNA, which is necessary for them to divide to make new cells. This problem shows up most strongly in the cell types that normally reproduce fairly rapidly, because they have short lifetimes. This includes some of the blood cell types, as well as the cells lining the intestine. If new cells are not made rapidly enough in the intestine to replace the older ones that are being sloughed off, I think this could contribute to developing a leaky gut. A leaky gut will allow oxalates, which come in with food, to enter the blood. They are filtered out of the blood by the kidneys. If oxalate encounters calcium under appropriate conditions, it will react to form the highly insoluble compound calcium oxalate. This can contribute to the formation of kidney stones. Does this scenario really happen? I don't know, but I think it is a plausible hypothesis.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[LaurieL]

Laurie, you ask really good questions! My belief, substantiated only by my own experience, is that our intestinal microbiome plays a big role in how well we do or do not handle oxalates.

I'm eager to hear from others, but my own tolerance of foods high in oxalates has varied wildly. At times, I haven't been able to tolerate even a bite of something like spinach or I would get a huge increase in pain levels. In the recent past, I am able to handle large quantities of these foods. I have always assumed that my microbiome has changed dramatically.

But perhaps, as you may be suggesting, there is some more complicated interaction between our microbiome and methylation supplements. I will stay tuned to this discussion.

Hi determined,

My friends refer to me as a catalyst or a tree shaker amongst other things.... I say that with a lopsided grin and one eyebrow raised.

I mentioned on another thread, I dont know whether to equate the intestinal dysfunction as the chicken or the egg, but I do know that everything my intestines should be doing, aren't. And in the context of illness, it wouldn't matter if the chicken or the egg came first, because they both can occur regardless as a cause or a result. So the only solution for me is to equate this to being a positive feedback loop, in which must be interupted so as to address the problem. As the problem will not correct itself without the interuption. A positive feedback loop will feed off of itself and incite others in which feed it type of thing. Positive does not indicate a good thing.

I also welcome discussion of calcium oxalate again even though this is another subject in which has been repeatedly been discussed although, not as much as histamine.

I don't know of a very direct connection, but I'll suggest a circuitous one:

If the methylation cycle is partially blocked, this also disrupts the folate metabolism, because the two are linked together by the methionine synthase reaction. This causes draining of folates from the cells into the blood by the so-called "methyl trap" mechanism. With low folates in the cells, they are less able to make new DNA, which is necessary for them to divide to make new cells. This problem shows up most strongly in the cell types that normally reproduce fairly rapidly, because they have short lifetimes. This includes some of the blood cell types, as well as the cells lining the intestine. If new cells are not made rapidly enough in the intestine to replace the older ones that are being sloughed off, I think this could contribute to developing a leaky gut. A leaky gut will allow oxalates, which come in with food, to enter the blood. They are filtered out of the blood by the kidneys. If oxalate encounters calcium under appropriate conditions, it will react to form the highly insoluble compound calcium oxalate. This can contribute to the formation of kidney stones. Does this scenario really happen? I don't know, but I think it is a plausible hypothesis.

Hi Rich,

I think it is very plausible and one I have run across in medical literature as well. As with histamine, we are again connected by the MTR. Oxalate deposition I believe is not only limited to the kidneys. What I found interesting in the medical literature I read, is that it is also deposited in the skin of some patients with oxalate formation problems. How would one explain this? Why wouldn't it be confined to only the kidneys? I believe an answer in this will help to find a solution to the stone formation in the kidney's.

Laurie