British NHS categorise CFS as MUS (Psych)!

[Ellie_Finesse]

Thank you for clarifying that

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My last post was to illustrate that psychiatrists Michael Sharpe and Peter White (UK CBT/GET PACE Trial), psychiatrists Per Fink (Denmark) and Francis Creed (DSMV) firmly link Medically Unexplained Symptoms with Psychosomatics. The patients are not misinterpreting what they read, or reading too much into things because of being distressed.
.

Its important for me to make clear first thst I wasn't implying that patients were misinterpreting due to distress! I was saying that we as people, including myself, can sometimes misinterpret the meaning of what has been written.

I agree that there are are some psychiatrists who do believe that all MUS are psychosomatic but I also believe that some do not. I find it hard to believe that they are all of the same mind. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here?

 

[Ellie_Finesse]

That's nice, but it does mean "psychosomatic" to people using the MUPS label, and it means "psychosomatic" to other practitioners. The reason it is preferred by those people is because the suckers patients they diagnose with it won't find it offensive unless they read all the papers explaining that MUPS is now the preferred way to label patients with a psychosomatic disorder.

It's a frequent tactic with these people. They take a positive or neutral term, and paste it on their latest nasty and twisted concept or treatment. CBT can be a very positive thing ... but the CBT used in ME bears no resemblance to the real CBT used in other biological illnesses. Yet they will say illness-denial CBT is a "real" therapy because illness-acceptance CBT is also used in those other illnesses. Conversely, some practitioners now call it "pacing" when they utilize GET, because GET has a deservedly bad reputation, and patients support pacing.

If something is medically unexplained, everyone should be rushing to find an explanation. Not "managing" MUPS patients by restricting their usage of the medical system and giving them antidepressants, CBT, GET, and tips for lifestyle changes and stress management.

@Valentijn I can't argue with what you had said because you are right, in fact everyone is right. Hence why I usually just like comments rather than out a view accross. But as I have just said, after you commented, I find it hard to believe that all psychiatrists are of the same mind.

 

[Valentijn]

But as I have just said, after you commented, I find it hard to believe that all psychiatrists are of the same mind.

MUPS is a euphemism for psychosomatism. Period.

Accordingly, the vast majority of practitioners who believe that "unexplained" is really just unexplained would not use that term. A few of them might use it in research, as a somewhat sneaky way to undermine the psychosomatic theories regarding specific diseases.

And it's likely that only a small-ish minority of practitioners believe in the broader concept of psychosomatism at all, especially if they've put any thought into it. But again, they would certainly not label a patient with MUPS. They'd list the symptoms and keep investigating them until they find an explanation.

So MUPS does have a very specific meaning, and it is psychosomatic. But only some people actually believe in it.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

time the bastards were attacked by patients, preferably in court, or by government
sorry this shit has been going on for 150 odd years, anything they can't explain, they blame the patient for it, gaslight and abuse them, sometimes killing them in the process

so they need publicly DESTROYED
alas the "professional classes" are deeply entrenched part of the Establishment and like paedophiles, the "system" will protect them no matter what they have done unless it becomes too blatant and millions march with torches and pitchforks on 'em.

sorry folks but they are just nasty bullying scum, they're all the same, it takes a victim to kick 'em in the balls to put an end to it. You cannot appeal to their "better nature" because they don't HAVE any (or have chosen to deny it and built up their own walls of psychological bullshit so like any extremist they will not admit it until the "Fuhrer Bunker falls" and often not even then
so they need widely massively publicly attacked, belittled and exposed for the ratbags they are.

I'm not actually as gnarly as I may sound but it's just the facts of life as I've learned them. you can help switch folks opinions by decency, but douchebags you can only avoid, or fight. douchebags have power and abuse it to get their say their way and down out the victims

 

[Chrisb]

Can anyone explain why, if it be the case, as has been suggested, that a diagnosis of MUS or MUPS merely indicates an open mind as to whether an illness is of physical or psychological origin, the cases seem to be dealt with entirely within psychiatry departments? Does this not give the game away? One might expect them to find at least some cases with no psychiatric co-morbidity, and refer them back for further tests, but it never seems to happen - which is surprising given that White has indicated that a third of cases might fall within this category.

Judge people not by what they say , but by what they do.

The question is rhetorical. I think we all know the answer.

 

[Hip]

There is an astutely-written Wikipedia article on medically unexplained physical symptoms (MUPS or MUS). Here are some excerpts:

Medically unexplained physical symptoms (MUPS or MUS) are symptoms for which a treating physician or other healthcare providers have found no medical cause, or whose cause remains contested. In its strictest sense, the term simply means that the cause for the symptoms is unknown or disputed—there is no scientific consensus.

However, in practice, most physicians and authors who use the term consider that the symptoms most likely arise from psychological causes. It is estimated that between 15% and 30% of all primary care consultations are for medically unexplained symptoms.

The lack of known etiology in MUPS cases can lead to conflict between patient and health-care provider over the diagnosis and treatment of MUPS. Most physicians will consider that MUPS most probably have a psychological cause (even if the patient displays no evidence of psychological problems).

Many patients, on the other hand, reject the implication that their problems are "all in their head", and feel their symptoms have a physical cause. Diagnosis of MUPS is seldom a satisfactory situation for the patient, and can lead to an adversarial doctor-patient relationship. The situation may lead a patient to question the doctor's competence.

 

[Seven7]

I wish somebody would write an article, I was in a another thread from Norway talking about the symptoms causes and origins. It is as if UK is in a different planet that no matter the prove on symptoms causes they keep saying that we cannot explain the symptoms and that is false believe for most symptoms, even though study after study demonstrate w results accepted in other diseases as valid findings.

Pain: the latic acid build up
neuro: tones of studies on brain fog and micro...
Sleep: no cause but can demonstrate the symptom.....


I think we need as a patient group ask the hard questions: Why cant you come to the meetings and show what is wrong w the current research, why Psys are in denial of findings. We need to call wolf on this people and start questioning motives PUBLICLY and OPENLY. I really feel like Alice in wonderland w UK.

 

[Hip]

It is as if UK is in a different planet

I think the tendency to view ME/CFS purely as a psychiatric condition may be just as large a problem in the US as it is in the UK

I was recently conversing online with the husband of a US neurologist who works in a major hospital in the US. This neurologist views ME/CFS is psychiatric, not neurological. Not only that, but I was told that all her neurologist colleagues are of the same opinion. And these are not old in the tooth doctors, but young neurologists, just a few years out of medical school. In medical school they are apparently being taught that ME/CFS psychiatric.

Yes, there may be around 20 or so ME/CFS specialists in the US that do treat ME/CFS as a disease with a physiological cause, but these are a tiny minority, and they run private practices. But how are ME/CFS patients treated in the US when they go to the average hospital?

From what I gathered from the said conversation, outside of these 20 ME/CFS specialists, there may be many neurologists in hospitals all over the US who believe ME/CFS psychiatric.

 

[alkt]

Can anyone explain why, if it be the case, as has been suggested, that a diagnosis of MUS or MUPS merely indicates an open mind as to whether an illness is of physical or psychological origin, the cases seem to be dealt with entirely within psychiatry departments? Does this not give the game away? One might expect them to find at least some cases with no psychiatric co-morbidity, and refer them back for further tests, but it never seems to happen - which is surprising given that White has indicated that a third of cases might fall within this category.

Judge people not by what they say , but by what they do.

The question is rhetorical. I think we all know the answer.

mups is just the dumping ground of any case or illness that is beyond the doctors present understanding and unfortunately doctors do not have the time motivation or finances to investigate each and every patient which is why many patients take years to even get a name put to their illness.

 

[Chrisb]

I really feel like Alice in wonderland w UK

Do you intend this in the sense "Words mean what I want them to mean said Humpty Dumpty. The question is which is to be master, that's all?"

 

[Chrisb]

In these Orwellian times when words matter, I am interested in the disappearance of the P from MUPS. Presumably it is not because some VIP's (Very Important Psychiatrist) - when all else fails ridicule and derision are the only remaining weapons-keyboard malfunctioned and the herd followed blindly. Am I right in my recollection that the term was originally MUPS, that MUPS and MUS became interchangeable, and that MUPS is now rarely used except by those who deliberately intend to ensure that the "physical" does not disappear?

I no longer have the capacity for detailed reading of the documents to ascertain any differences in criteria, but this does appear reminiscent of the CFS fiasco. Rather than refine criteria to identify specific sub groups, widen them to allow an ever more diverse population to fall within the definition. It can then be said to be all too difficult and hands can be washed.

Could the removal of the P have been a preemptive measure to forestall the argument that the proper home for unexplained physical symptoms is not the psychiatry department?

 

[Seven7]

And these are not old in the tooth doctors, but young neurologists

that is a good point, the neurologist need education, is there a way to publish some summary of research and physical fidnings in the journals of the main professions??? @Sasha I think that is a good advocacy project, to get some findings summary with links to studies to the main profession journals, starting w neurology.

 

[Sasha]

that is a good point, the neurologist need education, is there a way to publish some summary of research and physical fidnings in the journals of the main professions??? @Sasha I think that is a good advocacy project, to get some findings summary with links to studies to the main profession journals, starting w neurology.

What you're suggesting is an academic paper and I agree it could be a good idea but not one I'm capable of doing, I'm afraid!

 

[Seven7]

What you're suggesting is an academic paper and I agree it could be a good idea but not one I'm capable of doing, I'm afraid!

I know I just dont't know who to ask or who to propose. If I would have the Jason Lenny? contact I would ask him. I think that is his name, he has been studding the new definition and writing about it.

 

[Sasha]

I know I just dont't know who to ask or who to propose. If I would have the Jason Lenny? contact I would ask him. I think that is his name, he has been studding the new definition and writing about it.

I don't think that the biomedical stuff is his area but I don't know who to suggest, I'm afraid.