Boron, Molybdenum, SUOX and Sulfites. (The Boron Fix for Sulfites)

[Gondwanaland]

So I have raised my B2, as well as the boron and am sleeping better!

B2 is the most consistent sleep help that I can get

ETA silica also helps but not as consistently as B2. Assuming you are getting increased endogenous sulfate from high Moly, this sulfate is best used up by being directed by silica to collagen synthesis (silica will eventually lead to B1 depletion).

 

[Kathevans]

B2 is the most consistent sleep help that I can get

I hardly dare for consistency! Occasional would do.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I hardly dare for consistency! Occasional would do.

I do need breaks from taking B2 at bedtime, but when I need it again it is a repeatable success!

 

[Kathevans]

I do need breaks from taking B2 at bedtime, but when I need it again it is a repeatable success!

So maybe the increase to 200mg of riboflavin will help me in general. I hope so. But your need to take 'breaks from' bedtime supplementation may be something like what I experience with the boron. I'm sort of pulsing my daily doses up and down. Although, as I've said, it also feels like 'refeeding' because I seem to need to slowly, yet consistently raise my dosage to avoid not only sleeplessness, but also the Dupytrens pain in my hands, as well as in my feet (ugh!).

 

[Gondwanaland]

So maybe the increase to 200mg of riboflavin will help me in general. I hope so. But your need to take 'breaks from' bedtime supplementation

I take 2 - 4 mg only, at bedtime. I need breaks because I seem to go too low in histamine and/or cortisol because it gets too hard to get out of bed in the morning.

IDK if you saw it, but I edited my post above at the top of this page to add some info on silica.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Kathevans I just saw "oxalates" in your signature. My oxalate issues are gone since I excluded high omega 6 sources from my diet (seeds & nuts). Very occasionally I eat a treat with a small amount of nuts (pecans or almonds) with no detrimental effects. So I am only left with high uric acid issues , which seems to actually be an imbalance mainly between folate and B2. If I eat a lot of high folate foods (raw vegetables and greens), or high purine meats (e.g. duck) I seem to need more B2 in both cases.

 

[Kathevans]

@Gondwanaland My recent onset of more extreme symptoms occurred about four years ago with symptoms of both chronic diarrhea and pain issues. An OAT Test about that time showed high endogenous markers for oxyalates and I dutifully went on the diet and was very careful about what I ate. I still am to some extent, though oxalates no longer seem to be my primary issue. I do have arthritis, Dupytrens contracture, trigger fingers and a host of gut symptoms. But more and more I suspect my toxic load of lead, mercury and cadmium have me in their grip. Now that I have had my amalgam all removed as of last April, I am beginning to chelate using the Cutler Protocol.

This is a long road and I am weary. Though my issues worsened four years ago, I've been experiencing many of them for the last 25 years !

My urea cycle markers seem to be ok, knock wood. but I almost certainly have an imbalance between Folate and B2--which, as I've said, doesn't seem to be functioning! Most of all I am working on my gut now, and have seen gains from the work I've done. If the gut is good, absorption improves, and in my case this seems to be a root cause...

I am a bit jealous of your ability to use such small doses, as well as the infinitely preferable use of foods to calibrate how you feel. I seem to need bigger guns. And I'm not particularly happy about it. It's in constant flux, which alone feels like a kind of tyranny. I always have to be paying attention or I suffer for it.

I managed to go on vacation earlier this summer, which initially felt like a challenge I wouldn't be able to meet, but low and behold, I miraculously did. There were many days when I felt as if I was flying out of control, barely airborn. But there were days I felt exhilarated and free--out of my house at long last, seeing things I'd never seen, going to places I'd never been.

I'm grateful for that.

 

[aaron_c]

Interesting. I was just thinking that in fact high sulfite foods help me with Moly pain (e.g. coconut oil).

Molybdenum causes pain for you? Interesting (and I'm sure, horrible). Can you say more?

 

[aaron_c]

I began to take molybdenum because Greg Russell-Jones said it was an important element in making B2 functional (along with selenium and iodine, or a well-functioning thyroid).

Huh. Selenium and iodine I can understand, if you don't have those then you can't produce thyroid hormone and then you won't produce the ATP you need to phosphorylate riboflavin or adenylate FMN. Not sure where molybdenum fits in. I found what might be Greg Russell-Jones' page, and unfortunately whoever the author is they don't say how they know that molybdenum is involved.

I was taking 1.5 mg of molybdenum (1500 mcg) for the better part of two years. You're taking a lot more copper than I currently can, so I would hope that's helpful as far as the boron insomnia goes (because it should chelate molybdenum).

 

[Gondwanaland]

I am a bit jealous of your ability to use such small doses, as well as the infinitely preferable use of foods to calibrate how you feel. I seem to need bigger guns. And I'm not particularly happy about it. It's in constant flux, which alone feels like a kind of tyranny. I always have to be paying attention or I suffer for it.

I am under the tyranny of supplement intolerance (I suspect high heavy metal load causing intolerable detox)

Molybdenum causes pain for you? Interesting (and I'm sure, horrible). Can you say more?

Xanthine oxidase + Homocysteine

Not sure where molybdenum fits in.

B2 and Moly meet at Xanthine oxidase

The Relationship between Homocysteine and Uric Acid Levels in Gouty Patients
(...) Choi and colleagues have shown that serum uric acid levels were not significantly different between gout and healthy control groups, while serum homocysteine levels were significantly higher in patients with gout compared to controls. They concluded that hyperhomocysteinemia was not correlated with serum uric acid, but it was inversely associated with impaired renal function. This study is important because it provides scientific information on this clinically relevant condition. However, we think that some points should be discussed.

Homocysteine is an essential sulphur-containing amino acid (2, 3). An elevated homocysteine level is a risk factor for cardiovascular, cerebrovascular and peripheral vascular diseases (2, 4). High homocyteine levels may affect by several factors including poor absorption of vitamin B6, B12 and folic acid, and impaired renal function, male sex smoking, high blood pressure, heavy coffee consumption, and exercise status, and serum cholesterol levels (4, 5). These factors could have affected the results of the study. Authors did not explain this status.

In addition, the methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) is a significant enzyme for homocyteine metabolism (4, 6). Higher homocysteine levels observed in patients in this study groups maybe due to MTHFR mutations. Authors did not examine the mutations in the MTHFR gene.

In conclusion, these data could provide the readers of the journal clearer information to evaluate the levels of serum homocysteine and uric acid in gouty patients.

 

[Kathevans]

Interestingly, @Gondwanaland, I am certain that Boron has a lot to do with detox, though most specifically of the gut. For me the sleeplessness seems to occur when my body is pushed to detox too fast. If I pull back, then I sleep moderately once again. Like I said, a real tightrope. And thank you for filling me in on the crossroads of moly and B2. I trust Greg when it comes to the chemistry, but I really know nothing about this...Not my wheelhouse!

And @aaron_c 1500mcg is high for molybdenum. My highest was two of the 150mcg tablets. Following some of your caveats with regard to boron, I've dropped it to 125mcg. My goal is to be more like @Gondwanaland, but with a lower toxic load ! and have my food be enough. Maybe a One-a-Day Multi thing.

 

[Kadar]

I found taking iodine helped significantly to decrease my need in b2 during taking boron . Probably because both involved in fluoride detox.

I too experienced more intensive reaction from boron when took molybdenum, so guys be careful. (I was taking 1mg of molybdenum everyday for around 20-30 days before adding boron)

UPD: as I took iodine more and more it gave me same effects as boron. I shouldn't continue taking iodine so I don't get b2 drop again. Some balance is needed if you don't want to push detox too fast.

 

[Learner1]

trust Greg when it comes to the chemistry, but I really know nothing about this...Not my wheelhouse!

I had quite a detailed discussion with Greg a while back, and no matter what I said or what lab results I showed that conflicted with his pronouncements, he never deviated from his one size fits all proposition to "cure" all of us. I would be highly suspicious of anything he says.

 

[Kathevans]

he never deviated from his one size fits all proposition to "cure" all of us. I would be highly suspicious of anything he says.

Well, I agree with this to some degree. He does look at your genetics and at either the OAT or NutrEval, and he works from those. But yes, he is basically your B2 (MAO), B-12 (MTR, MTRR) guy. Getting these right and helping your thyroid to work--which is essential to activating B2--can't help but assist with overall health.

The truth, of course is that we are all individuals and we may have other complications beyond these issues. I won't say he hasn't challenged my patience from time to time. You have to hold strong and have faith in the other things you've incorporated into your healing...

 

[Learner1]

Well, I agree with this to some degree. He does look at your genetics and at either the OAT or NutrEval, and he works from those. But yes, he is basically your B2 (MAO), B-12 (MTR, MTRR) guy. Getting these right and helping your thyroid to work--which is essential to activating B2--can't help but assist with overall health.

The truth, of course is that we are all individuals and we may have other complications beyond these issues. I won't say he hasn't challenged my patience from time to time. You have to hold strong and have faith in the other things you've incorporated into your healing...

I do have some mysteries I've been trying to solve and found him to be no help whatsoever. I shared the tests you mentioned and what he was saying was not reflected at all on my tests, but a repetition of his favorite theories. I don't have MAO issues and B2 works with far more than MAO.

I agree with holding strong and having faith in other things incorporated into ones healing. Good point!