Blood/Urine test opinion (Lithium, folic acid....?...

BeADocToGoTo1

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Do you think it doesnt matters folic acid/5mthf suplementation for blood increased levels?
I am not vegan nor vegetarian. In fact I dont eat almost vegetables.
I am completely lost because I have lowered homocistein with 5 mthf but folic acid is too high....Would you do? Increase the cofactors but leave b9 ?....Maybe it makes sense...
Do you mean betaine hcl for improve digestion? like this? https://www.amazon.es/Now-Foods-Betaína-vegetales-cápsulas/dp/B06XFLDTFH/ref=asc_df_B06XFLDTFH
What form would you use?
Thanks for your response
I think it definitely does matter which type you use, in fact one other thing comes to mind is the quality of your supplement. It is tough to find a brand that you can trust as there is so much fake stuff out there. If it was me I would stop the supplementation of all B9 for a while until doing another test and seeing how just making that one change impacts the level. Another thing to try is to use a different brand of 5-MTHF, just in case what they state on the bottle is not actually what is in the bottle. Folic acid, which is synthetic and a lot cheaper, is also added in fortified and packaged foods (e.g. enriched flours, cornmeal, pasta, rice, and other grain products) and multi-vitamins. So you might be getting more folic acid accidentally. Hence my question about food. But also check any other supplements you are taking for folic acid ingredients and change or avoid them for a while.

"In fact I dont eat almost vegetables." - Sorry, if I misunderstood this. Are you saying you do not eat many vegetables, which would be concerning? Or did you mean you eat a lot of vegetables? Folate is present in legumes, vegetables and seeds, which would be the better way of getting it.

The betaine I took does not have HCL, but was betaine anhydrous or TMG. I have used the LifeExtension brand which does have a branch in Europe too.
 
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Saw that in your liver enzymes. ;)



True, but in case it is present, why not use every little indication available.



Try for example Methylcobalamin for an experiment.



Lack of utilization could be seen in high homocysteine only. After you ruled out B12, B6, B2, and TMG/choline over time. As explained above, and/or by experimenting with varying doses of each over time. Serum and RBC folate (forget about folic acid, since these test summarize all kinds of folates) test together might give some clue about diffence in serum and RBC (cell) levels. Nothing about utilization. One has to retest homocysteine for that, by changing the varying variables (B12, B9, B6, B2, etc. doses).



That abstract concludes:



Doesn't concern me as much as the more certain cancer-risk of deficiency, but also in this study mentioned of high homocysteine, and my levels before any supplementation (ie. at that time after 40 years of my life, compared to 10 years supplemented after):

B9: 5,.7 ng/ml s. (4,6-18,7)
B12: 179 pmol/l s. (187-883)



In this case I would first try balancing with where there is definitely lack of utilization (which an OAT tries to capture by usually measuring metabolites, instead of the vitamins themselves): In your case vitamin B6, vitamin C, CoQ10, and NAC.
Thank you very much. Only a few more questions if you dont mind
What do you think about b12 shots? I have read are very efficient

Maybe you were a little defiency of b9 in those tests....but isnt >20 ng/ml as you have (as I have) too much?....What kind of b9 did you use? 5 mthf? Are you still using it?
Then, in my case, would you stop 5-mthf? I agree with b6, C (although I am a little worried about orine oxalates long term), Co10 and NAC (although I have read NAC is not positive long term....)

Regards
 
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I think it definitely does matter which type you use, in fact one other thing comes to mind is the quality of your supplement. It is tough to find a brand that you can trust as there is so much fake stuff out there. If it was me I would stop the supplementation of all B9 for a while until doing another test and seeing how just making that one change impacts the level. Another thing to try is to use a different brand of 5-MTHF, just in case what they state on the bottle is not actually what is in the bottle. Folic acid, which is synthetic and a lot cheaper, is also added in fortified and packaged foods (e.g. enriched flours, cornmeal, pasta, rice, and other grain products) and multi-vitamins. So you might be getting more folic acid accidentally. Hence my question about food. But also check any other supplements you are taking for folic acid ingredients and change or avoid them for a while.

"In fact I dont eat almost vegetables." - Sorry, if I misunderstood this. Are you saying you do not eat many vegetables, which would be concerning? Or did you mean you eat a lot of vegetables? Folate is present in legumes, vegetables and seeds, which would be the better way of getting it.

The betaine I took does not have HCL, but was betaine anhydrous or TMG. I have used the LifeExtension brand which does have a branch in Europe too.
Thanks
I looked into diet to avoid fortified foods. I meant I dont have a lot of vegetables....maybe 1 serving per day....I told you that in case it was a problem for the high folic acid (sorry for my english, I am from Spain)
I read that TMG could be bad according to certain gene methylation types.....do you think is good for all people? Taking into account my OAT and blood test do you think could be recommendable?....Any test to perform to see if I really need it?...I am a little lost about lower homocysteine now I see I shouldnt use b9 for my high levels....


Regards
 

pamojja

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Maybe you were a little defiency of b9 in those tests....but isnt >20 ng/ml as you have (as I have) too much?....What kind of b9 did you use? 5 mthf? Are you still using it?
Then, in my case, would you stop 5-mthf? I agree with b6, C (although I am a little worried about orine oxalates long term), Co10 and NAC (although I have read NAC is not positive long term....)
According to my repeated homocysteine I do have bottlenecks of all. Therefore the higher B9 doesn't concern me, what concerns me is that it isn't utilized to bring homocysteine levels down. The first 2 years of supplementing I used folic acid, the remaining 8 years till today methylfolate only, with some occasional folinic acid. In average about 2 mg/d. I wouldn't stop. Because high homocysteine is definitely associated with bad outcomes, high serum folate serum levels are not.

Vitamin does increase oxalate excretion, but contrary to the still promoted myth, never caused kidney stones in anyone. What's the concern with NAC? (the finding in animals at oral doses never used in humans causing pulmonary hypertension?). Never dried B12 shots, therefore no experience to share.

I read that TMG could be bad according to certain gene methylation types.....do you think is good for all people?
All nutrients could cause bad reactions at certain levels of intake, because nutrients need is individual to begin with, predetermined by previous medical conditions, epigenetic lifestyle-influences, and to a small extent genetics too. All of them. Therefore always start with the lowest possible dose of a supplement, and increase gradually over weeks, months and years. That way you always find your particular level of a nutrient, you don't tolerate and therefore can avoid.

TMG is a natural occurring nutrient, which on a high sea-food diet one already gets at about 1 g per day. The one thing which had many concerned about TMG (and choline) is that it was found to get metabolized by certain gut bacteria into TMAO, which again increased CVD risk significantly. These bacteria are predominantly found in meat-eaters. Thought would mention, because if you really eat little vegetables, this might be of concern to you too.

But mind it, me as vegetarian since age 10 developed very severe CVD. Which is much worse than a theoretical increase of 'risk'. A microbiome test confirmed almost none TMAO producing bacteria in my gut. Therefore even without TMAO there are so many 'risk-factors' for CVD, enough for having it full-blown even without any.
 
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According to my repeated homocysteine I do have bottlenecks of all. Therefore the higher B9 doesn't concern me, what concerns me is that it isn't utilized to bring homocysteine levels down. The first 2 years of supplementing I used folic acid, the remaining 8 years till today methylfolate only, with some occasional folinic acid. In average about 2 mg/d. I wouldn't stop. Because high homocysteine is definitely associated with bad outcomes, high serum folate serum levels are not.

Vitamin does increase oxalate excretion, but contrary to the still promoted myth, never caused kidney stones in anyone. What's the concern with NAC? (the finding in animals at oral doses never used in humans causing pulmonary hypertension?). Never dried B12 shots, therefore no experience to share.



All nutrients could cause bad reactions at certain levels of intake, because nutrients need is individual to begin with, predetermined by previous medical conditions, epigenetic lifestyle-influences, and to a small extent genetics too. All of them. Therefore always start with the lowest possible dose of a supplement, and increase gradually over weeks, months and years. That way you always find your particular level of a nutrient, you don't tolerate and therefore can avoid.

TMG is a natural occurring nutrient, which on a high sea-food diet one already gets at about 1 g per day. The one thing which had many concerned about TMG (and choline) is that it was found to get metabolized by certain gut bacteria into TMAO, which again increased CVD risk significantly. These bacteria are predominantly found in meat-eaters. Thought would mention, because if you really eat little vegetables, this might be of concern to you too.

But mind it, me as vegetarian since age 10 developed very severe CVD. Which is much worse than a theoretical increase of 'risk'. A microbiome test confirmed almost none TMAO producing bacteria in my gut. Therefore even without TMAO there are so many 'risk-factors' for CVD, enough for having it full-blown even without any.
Thank you very much for your complete answer.
But, I think if your body isn´t using it....it is a bad thing according to this
https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Folic_acid_Too_much_of_a_good_thing
This about vitamin C
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/high-dose-vitamin-c-linked-to-kidney-stones-in-men-201302055854
I was looking for a method according to my methylation to find out if TMG would be good for me. I would like to know before hand....because of the placebo effect....

Regards
 

pamojja

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Compare this study of 23.000 Swedish man, where supplemental intake of vitamin C increased risk of kidney stones twice than non-supplementers (and always read the original paper, to find out what quality of study, confounders taking in consideration, which patient-groups excluded, how much vitamin C they used [didn't tell, but probably not more than the usual 500-1000 mg/d], where actual levels tested, and the actual numbers of kidney stones in each group, etc.) - to this clinical observation of very, very high doses (upto 50-100 grams) of vitamin C in comparison:

http://www.doctoryourself.com/kidney.html

Robert F. Cathcart II, M.D. writes on “Why Don’t Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones?”

“Years ago when Linus Pauling wrote his book "Vitamin C and the Common Cold", the critics immediately labeled the taking of large doses of vitamin C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical evidence of kidney stones in people taking vitamin C.

“It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of ascorbate have elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused kidney stones there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this time. There has been none.

“I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. By the time I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive doses to patients. To this day (2006) I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by coincidence, developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough vitamin C.”
Personally already used in average 24 g/d of pure ascorbic acid the last 10 years. And though I was never officially diagnosed, according to online calculators for chronic kidney disease and my initial lab-numbers would have classified for CKD stage I at the beginning. That corrected itself very fast, and had numerous other miraculous health benefits the researcher of usual supplemental doses of 500-1000 mg/d will never find out about...

But research it yourself.

But, I think if your body isn´t using it....it is a bad thing according to this
https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Folic_acid_Too_much_of_a_good_thing
Sadly, that journal apparently doesn't allows to read a second article without signing up. After already the first being completely non applicable to my situation - by taking doses many times multiples they studied - I guess also this only looked at folic acid, which I didn't take for 8 years. And really not worth signing up for.

But please feel free to summarize why high levels of methylfolate in blood could be bad to me.

I was looking for a method according to my methylation to find out if TMG would be good for me. I would like to know before hand....because of the placebo effect....
Homocysteine is a test certainly not influenced by the placebo effect. And by retesting after trialing various doses one can find out. Even genetic tests wont tell you ever at which dose what effect-size to expect. Only trialing and retesting homocysteine does.
 
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BeADocToGoTo1

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Thanks
I looked into diet to avoid fortified foods. I meant I dont have a lot of vegetables....maybe 1 serving per day....I told you that in case it was a problem for the high folic acid (sorry for my english, I am from Spain)
I read that TMG could be bad according to certain gene methylation types.....do you think is good for all people? Taking into account my OAT and blood test do you think could be recommendable?....Any test to perform to see if I really need it?...I am a little lost about lower homocysteine now I see I shouldnt use b9 for my high levels....


Regards
No worries! English is my 2nd language as well so we will figure it out. :)

The distinction between folate (natural in food) vs folic acid (not natural, and added to processed food and some supplements) was why I asked. If your test was high for folic acid, that means you are taking too much of it in through supplements containing folic acid or processed food and drink. Your supplement might actually contain folic acid instead of 5MTHF. High folic acid does not mean too many vegetables as they do not contain any, they contain folate. Here is a good link explaining it:

https://chriskresser.com/folate-vs-folic-acid/

My personal experience with gene testing is perhaps different from others here. Just because you have a mutation, does not mean it is turned on. I did 23andMe testing and although interesting did not provide me with any actionable information even with a bunch of mutations showing. It was nutritional testing and trial and error with food and supplements that made the difference.

You can try to stop your 5MTHF temporarily and retest your folic acid to see if it makes a difference. Try a different brand temporarily and see what effect that has. You can increase real food that contains folate and see what effect that has. And try the various elements listed in the various responses on lowering homocysteine. In the end your body might react differently to someone else trying the same thing.
 
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Compare this study of 23.000 Swedish man, where supplemental intake of vitamin C increased risk of kidney stones twice than non-supplementers (and always read the original paper, to find out what quality of study, confounders taking in consideration, which patient-groups excluded, how much vitamin C they used [didn't tell, but probably not more than the usual 500-1000 mg/d], where actual levels tested, and the actual numbers of kidney stones in each group, etc.) - to this clinical observation of very, very high doses (upto 50-100 grams) of vitamin C in comparison:



Personally already used in average 24 g/d of pure ascorbic acid the last 10 years. And though I was never officially diagnosed, according to online calculators for chronic kidney disease and my initial lab-numbers would have classified for CKD stage I at the beginning. That corrected itself very fast, and had numerous other miraculous health benefits the researcher of usual supplemental doses of 500-1000 mg/d will never find out about...

But research it yourself.



Sadly, that journal apparently doesn't allows to read a second article without signing up. After already the first being completely non applicable to my situation - by taking doses many times multiples they studied - I guess also this only looked at folic acid, which I didn't take for 8 years. And really not worth signing up for.

But please feel free to summarize why high levels of methylfolate in blood could be bad to me.



Homocysteine is a test certainly not influenced by the placebo effect. And by retesting after trialing various doses one can find out. Even genetic tests wont tell you ever at which dose what effect-size to expect. Only trialing and retesting homocysteine does.
Thank you for your answer. I think TMG could be harmful in some cases and I would like to know if mine could be the same...I will be keeping investigating


Regards
 
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No worries! English is my 2nd language as well so we will figure it out. :)

The distinction between folate (natural in food) vs folic acid (not natural, and added to processed food and some supplements) was why I asked. If your test was high for folic acid, that means you are taking too much of it in through supplements containing folic acid or processed food and drink. Your supplement might actually contain folic acid instead of 5MTHF. High folic acid does not mean too many vegetables as they do not contain any, they contain folate. Here is a good link explaining it:

https://chriskresser.com/folate-vs-folic-acid/

My personal experience with gene testing is perhaps different from others here. Just because you have a mutation, does not mean it is turned on. I did 23andMe testing and although interesting did not provide me with any actionable information even with a bunch of mutations showing. It was nutritional testing and trial and error with food and supplements that made the difference.

You can try to stop your 5MTHF temporarily and retest your folic acid to see if it makes a difference. Try a different brand temporarily and see what effect that has. You can increase real food that contains folate and see what effect that has. And try the various elements listed in the various responses on lowering homocysteine. In the end your body might react differently to someone else trying the same thing.
Thank you very much. I will leave the 5 mthf and see what it happens....I will try to avoid fortified folic acid foods as well.
What is your opinion about TMG lowering homocysteine?

Regards
 

BeADocToGoTo1

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Thank you very much. I will leave the 5 mthf and see what it happens....I will try to avoid fortified folic acid foods as well.
What is your opinion about TMG lowering homocysteine?

Regards
I had a great experience with it and was able to drop my homocysteine by 20%. But was taking TMG the only reason that happened? Tough to say as I also stopped taking as much fishoil and was taking a few other supplements. I only took it for a few months, and when my last blood test came back to a healthy range, I stopped. I will have to do a test again in about 6 months as it is pricy and my insurance does not pay for it.

I did notice feeling better with TMG. If you decide to try it, especially since you seem to be a bit worried, start with a very low dosage and slowly built up a bit.
 

CFS_for_19_years

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@Trunks00, I would recommend repeating TSH, freeT4 and thyroid antibodies in 6-12 months. Your TSH is borderline high and you could become hypothyroid in the future. Even though your TSH is below 5.5, I believe anything above 2.5 should be watched. Your anti-thyroglobulin antibody was borderline and that could predict Hashimoto's thyroiditis. Whatever you do, do NOT take iodine supplements (word from endocrinologist).
 
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I had a great experience with it and was able to drop my homocysteine by 20%. But was taking TMG the only reason that happened? Tough to say as I also stopped taking as much fishoil and was taking a few other supplements. I only took it for a few months, and when my last blood test came back to a healthy range, I stopped. I will have to do a test again in about 6 months as it is pricy and my insurance does not pay for it.

I did notice feeling better with TMG. If you decide to try it, especially since you seem to be a bit worried, start with a very low dosage and slowly built up a bit.
I will investigate into TMG because I think I read that could be harmful in some cases despite being able to lower homocysteine....I dont want to do more harm than good. I am a litlle worried about overmethylation

Regards
 
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@Trunks00, I would recommend repeating TSH, freeT4 and thyroid antibodies in 6-12 months. Your TSH is borderline high and you could become hypothyroid in the future. Even though your TSH is below 5.5, I believe anything above 2.5 should be watched. Your anti-thyroglobulin antibody was borderline and that could predict Hashimoto's thyroiditis. Whatever you do, do NOT take iodine supplements (word from endocrinologist).
Do you know anything abput lythium so low? I am not sure if lythium suplementation could be harmful for thyroid as well...Regards
 

taniaaust1

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I have quite low lithium levels (hair test) supplementing with lithium orotate for 6mths though did not change my hair levels so I guess I do not metabolise it or something.