Blood/Urine test opinion (Lithium, folic acid....?...

[Trunks00]

Hi,


I have received my lab test and I would like to ask in case anyone knows about the topic

- I am taking 10 mg of lithium orotate but my lithium values are the same ( I always have the lithium very low...)
- I am taking 5-mthfr (folic acid active form) to lower homocistein....but my folic acid is higher and higher....why?... Isn´t it supposed to be the active-non acumulative form?
- What would yo do to lower fibrinogen?....




These are the tests:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xGh8ji6zpqgqpO1tPwJBFird3NikIpzj/view

I look forward to hearing from you

Regards

 

[pamojja]

- I am taking 10 mg of lithium orotate but my lithium values are the same ( I always have the lithium very low...)

Guess that's in serum. Found with other minerals results can be very different to 'whole blood' results. Which beside serum also contains RBC (red blood cells), the cells content. Or hair tissue (where high levels could signify higher excretion). One factor is certainly time.

Here my results, with average daily intakes over 3 years: (whole blood normal range: 0.01-0.05; hair: 0.01-0.06

year wh-bl hair intake

     mg/l ug/g mg/d

2012 0.05 0.03 1.1

2015 0,06 0.03 2.6

2018 0.11 0.02 4.4

- I am taking 5-mthfr (folic acid active form) to lower homocistein....but my folic acid is higher and higher....why?... Isn´t it supposed to be the active-non acumulative form?

Maybe co-factors for metabolizing homocysteine missing? (B12, B6, B2, TMG and choline?)

- What would yo do to lower fibrinogen?....

Decrease any inflammation possibly present.

 

[Crux]

Agree with @pamojja , especially regarding Choline .
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5931705/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213596/

 

[Trunks00]

Guess that's in serum. Found with other minerals results can be very different to 'whole blood' results. Which beside serum also contains RBC (red blood cells), the cells content. Or hair tissue (where high levels could signify higher excretion). One factor is certainly time.

Here my results, with average daily intakes over 3 years: (whole blood normal range: 0.01-0.05; hair: 0.01-0.06

year wh-bl hair intake

     mg/l ug/g mg/d

2012 0.05 0.03 1.1

2015 0,06 0.03 2.6

2018 0.11 0.02 4.4

Maybe co-factors for metabolizing homocysteine missing? (B12, B6, B2, TMG and choline?)



Decrease any inflammation possibly present.

mg/d is the amount of mg per day, isnt it? I am taking more than that (5 mg for 6 months and it doesnt build up....)
Could you tell me what kind of lithium supplement do you use? This is the one I take
https://www.amazon.com/NCI-Advanced-Research-Lithium-Orotate/dp/B000VHCU8M?th=1


Thank you very much for your quick response


Regards

 

[Learner1]

Agree with pamojja on the cofactors to lower homocysteine.

 

[ljimbo423]

- I am taking 5-mthfr (folic acid active form) to lower homocistein....but my folic acid is higher and higher....why?... Isn´t it supposed to be the active-non acumulative form?

I'm just guessing but taking the active form of folic acid (methylfolate) might be reducing the need for folic acid. That could cause folic acid to continue to build up, because your body is processing less of it.

If you are eating foods with folic acid in them or supplementing folic acid. Reducing the intake of those foods or supplements should lower your folic acid levels.

I also agree with what others have said about the needed co-factors for processing homocysteine.

 

[BeADocToGoTo1]

Looked like some of the amino acid values were low, uric acid was a bit elevated and antithyroglobulin was a bit elevated. If you supplement B9, it will show in the blood. I went overboard on B9 and B12 for a while and took a few months of not taking those supplements for the levels to get back to normal again. Thyroid Hashimoto's auto-immune is something to perhaps look into.

But also please take a hard and honest look at what you eat and drink. Often all these values can be quickly influenced by correcting diet. Are you a vegan or vegetarian? Eggs are a good way to increase choline intake, which can help lower homocysteine. Choline deficiency leads to deficient betaine (a.k.a. TMG, trimethyglycine), which is an important methyl donor and helps convert homocysteine to methionine.

Have a look at the transsulfuration metabolic pathway and look at cofactors used and its link to homocysteine. It does look a bit on the high side. Important cofactors used in the transsulfuration metabolic pathway, which is key in methionine activation, homocysteine conversion and glutathione production are selenium, vitamins B2, B6, B9, B12, taurine, NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), glycine, and molybdenum.

In addition to what the other members mentioned with B2, B6, B9 (looks like you might be taking too much in relation to the other elements), B12, Serine (amino acid) are other supplements or food sources to look into.

 

[pamojja]

mg/d is the amount of mg per day, isnt it? I am taking more than that (5 mg for 6 months and it doesnt build up....)
Could you tell me what kind of lithium supplement do you use?

Right.
I took the first 3 years lithium orotate with elemental lithium content of 1.1 mg x 365 days x 3 years = 1204.5 mg total.
You took 5 mg x 180 days = 900 mg total

I tested in whole blood, which as I said can give completely different results. You in serum, where you simply can't know how much it accumulated in whole blood.
I took much lower doses over longer time period (now a total of 10 years), with which one can expect to excrete much less on a daily basis than with higher bolus doses.

In short, too many unknowns for being sure about anything lithium-wise.

Serum with other minerals is tightly regulated by homeostasis, therefore if it behaves with lithium the same, and your cells have been depleted severely you would mention repletion in serum at the very last.

 

[Trunks00]

I'm just guessing but taking the active form of folic acid (methylfolate) might be reducing the need for folic acid. That could cause folic acid to continue to build up, because your body is processing less of it.

If you are eating foods with folic acid in them or supplementing folic acid. Reducing the intake of those foods or supplements should lower your folic acid levels.

I also agree with what others have said about the needed co-factors for processing homocysteine.

So common sense says that I would use only the other cofactors but no 5mthf....

 

[Trunks00]

Looked like some of the amino acid values were low, uric acid was a bit elevated and antithyroglobulin was a bit elevated. If you supplement B9, it will show in the blood. I went overboard on B9 and B12 for a while and took a few months of not taking those supplements for the levels to get back to normal again. Thyroid Hashimoto's auto-immune is something to perhaps look into.

But also please take a hard and honest look at what you eat and drink. Often all these values can be quickly influenced by correcting diet. Are you a vegan or vegetarian? Eggs are a good way to increase choline intake, which can help lower homocysteine. Choline deficiency leads to deficient betaine (a.k.a. TMG, trimethyglycine), which is an important methyl donor and helps convert homocysteine to methionine.

Have a look at the transsulfuration metabolic pathway and look at cofactors used and its link to homocysteine. It does look a bit on the high side. Important cofactors used in the transsulfuration metabolic pathway, which is key in methionine activation, homocysteine conversion and glutathione production are selenium, vitamins B2, B6, B9, B12, taurine, NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), glycine, and molybdenum.

In addition to what the other members mentioned with B2, B6, B9 (looks like you might be taking too much in relation to the other elements), B12, Serine (amino acid) are other supplements or food sources to look into.

Do you think it doesnt matters folic acid/5mthf suplementation for blood increased levels?
I am not vegan nor vegetarian. In fact I dont eat almost vegetables.
I am completely lost because I have lowered homocistein with 5 mthf but folic acid is too high....Would you do? Increase the cofactors but leave b9 ?....Maybe it makes sense...
Do you mean betaine hcl for improve digestion? like this? https://www.amazon.es/Now-Foods-Betaína-vegetales-cápsulas/dp/B06XFLDTFH/ref=asc_df_B06XFLDTFH
What form would you use?
Thanks for your response

 

[ljimbo423]

So common sense says that I would use only the other cofactors but no 5mthf....

I think you can be low in methylfolate (5mthf) and still have high folic acid levels. That seems to be common with high levels of oxidative stress, like in ME/CFS.

The folic acid doesn't get converted to 5mthf very well. That can cause high levels of folic acid but low levels of 5mthf.

 

[Trunks00]

I think you can be low in methylfolate (5mthf) and still have high folic acid levels. That seems to be common with high levels of oxidative stress, like in ME/CFS.

The folic acid doesn't get converted to 5mthf very well. That can cause high levels of folic acid but low levels of 5mthf.

Then what would be the answer?.....high folic acid, i cant take 5 mthf because it builds up...but I am supposedly folic acid deficience...

 

[ljimbo423]

Then what would be the answer?.....high folic acid, i cant take 5 mthf because it builds up...but I am supposedly folic acid deficience...

I only saw high levels of folic acid on your tests, not low, if this-"acido folico" from your test means folic acid. I only read english.

5mthf can't be turned into folic acid. So 5mthf can't raise your folic acid levels, only folic acid can do that. 5mthf helps the methionine cycle and therefore helps to lower homocysteine. So taking 5mthf should only help.

 

[Trunks00]

I only saw high levels of folic acid on your tests, not low, if this-"acido folico" from your test means folic acid. I only read english.

5mthf can't be turned into folic acid. So 5mthf can't raise your folic acid levels, only folic acid can do that. 5mthf helps the methionine cycle and therefore helps to lower homocysteine. So taking 5mthf should only help.

Yes, acido folico is folic acid. Ok. Then I cant understand why my folic acid is so high......I am using 5 mthf but if doesnt convert to folic acid...only for diet?....
I asked that because you said "I'm just guessing but taking the active form of folic acid (methylfolate) might be reducing the need for folic acid. That could cause folic acid to continue to build up "

Thank you very much
Regards

 

[ljimbo423]

Yes, acido folico is folic acid. Ok. Then I cant understand why my folic acid is so high......I am using 5 mthf but if doesnt convert to folic acid...only for diet?....
I asked that because you said "I'm just guessing but taking the active form of folic acid (methylfolate) might be reducing the need for folic acid. That could cause folic acid to continue to build up "

Thank you very much
Regards

Sorry, I misunderstood when you wrote this- "Then what would be the answer?.....high folic acid, i cant take 5 mthf because it builds up ". I could be wrong about 5mthf causing folic acid to build up. Again my apologies for the confusion.

 

[pamojja]

Found with other minerals results can be very different to 'whole blood' results

Examples:

potassium: 4.5 mmol/l in serum (3.5-5.1 normal) versus 1877 mg/l in whole blood (1750-1850)
magnesium: 0,82 mmol/l s. (0.66 - 1.07) vs. 29,9 mg/l wb. (34-36)
iron: 111 µg/dl s. (59-158) vs. 504 mg/l wb. (440-480)
copper: 110 µg/dl s. (65-165) vs. 1.29 mg/l wb. (1.1-1.2)
zinc: 79 µg/dl s. (73-127) vs. 8.1 mg/l wb. (7.3 - 7.7)

cobalamin: >2000 pmol/l s. (187-883) vs. urinary methylmalonic acid (better marker of B12 utilization): 0.32 mg/g (≤0,37)
folic acid: >20 ng/ml s. (4,6-18,7) vs. erythrocytes (RBC) folic acid: 1265 pmol/l (250-800)
vitamin B6: trice above highest normal for both serum and whole blood.

However, homocysteine in my case has been in average still 10 µmol/l (6.3-10; optimal 5-9): . One reason being my high B3 intake (using up methyl). I need at least 200 mg/d of B6 for being able to recall dreams, a sign of sufficiency.

I could be wrong about 5mthf causing folic acid to build up.

What is called a folic acid serum test, as far as I know, measures all forms of vitamin B9 together, it includes folic acid as well methylfolate. Or could consist of either exclusively. It also tells nothing about folate utilization.

Then what would be the answer?

The scope of what these serum tests can actually tell is how much is accumulating in the serum. It does tell outright deficiency if low, doesn't tell anything about being properly utilized whenever high through supplementation. Homocysteine for B12, B9, B6 and choline together, methylmalonic acid to tease out B12, dream-recall to tease out B6. Choline deficiency usually shows as liver damage (NAFLD). If all these 3 (personally in my case all been contributing, despite higher than normal serum levels) show no problems, than it can only be lack of folate utilization.

Are you taking at least some B2, B12, B6 and choline?

 

[ljimbo423]

What is called a folic acid serum test, as far as I know, measures all forms of vitamin B9 together, it includes folic acid as well methylfolate. Or could consist of either exclusively. It tells nothing about folate utilization.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Trunks00]

Examples:

potassium: 4.5 mmol/l in serum (3.5-5.1 normal) versus 1877 mg/l in whole blood (1750-1850)
magnesium: 0,82 mmol/l s. (0.66 - 1.07) vs. 29,9 mg/l wb. (34-36)
iron: 111 µg/dl s. (59-158) vs. 504 mg/l wb. (440-480)
copper: 110 µg/dl s. (65-165) vs. 1.29 mg/l wb. (1.1-1.2)
zinc: 79 µg/dl s. (73-127) vs. 8.1 mg/l wb. (7.3 - 7.7)

cobalamin: >2000 pmol/l s. (187-883) vs. urinary methylmalonic acid (better marker of B12 utilization): 0.32 mg/g (≤0,37)
folic acid: >20 ng/ml s. (4,6-18,7) vs. erythrocytes (RBC) folic acid: 1265 pmol/l (250-800)
vitamin B6: trice above highest normal for both serum and whole blood.

However, homocysteine in my case has been in average still 10 µmol/l (6.3-10; optimal 5-9): . One reason being my high B3 intake (using up methyl). I need at least 200 mg/d of B6 for being able to recall dreams, a sign of sufficiency.



What is called a folic acid serum test, as far as I know, measures all forms of vitamin B9 together, it includes folic acid as well methylfolate. Or could consist of either exclusively. It also tells nothing about folate utilization.



The scope of what these serum tests can actually tell is how much is accumulating in the serum. It does tell outright deficiency if low, doesn't tell anything about being properly utilized whenever high through supplementation. Homocysteine for B12, B9, B6 and choline together, methylmalonic acid to tease out B12, dream-recall to tease out B6. Choline deficiency usually shows as liver damage (NAFLD). If all these 3 (personally in my case all been contributing, despite higher than normal serum levels) show no problems, than it can only be lack of folate utilization.

Are you taking at least some B2, B12, B6 and choline?

I am not taking b2 because my OAT (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fC947L5qxWkOCG1vFUBomu5c73mAIJeL/view?usp=sharing) indicates I have it in the high range. I take b6 p5p (20 mg per day) and hidroxib12 500 mcg per day. I eat plenty of egg yolks for choline (two per day).
Then there is no value to measure folic acid utilization? erythrocytes (RBC)folic acid? or doesnt exist?
Isnt it the accumulation of folic acid bad?,,,,,I have read that (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6132377/)
Would you in my case continuing taking 5-mthf?....I am a little afraid of further accumultaion of folic acid

Thank you very much


Regards

 

[Crux]

I need at least 200 mg/d of B6 for being able to recall dreams, a sign of sufficiency.

Choline has redeemed my dreaming.

Choline deficiency usually shows as liver damage (NAFLD)

This is true, but lordy, it's a painful way to find out, and it takes many months to reverse it.

 

[pamojja]

I eat plenty of egg yolks for choline (two per day).

Saw that in your liver enzymes.

This is true, but lordy, it's a painful way to find out, and it takes many months to reverse it.

True, but in case it is present, why not use every little indication available.

I take b6 p5p (20 mg per day) and hidroxib12 500 mcg per day.

Try for example Methylcobalamin for an experiment.

Then there is no value to measure folic acid utilization? erythrocytes (RBC)folic acid? or doesnt exist?

Lack of utilization could be seen in high homocysteine only. After you ruled out B12, B6, B2, and TMG/choline over time. As explained above, and/or by experimenting with varying doses of each over time. Serum and RBC folate (forget about folic acid, since these test summarize all kinds of folates) test together might give some clue about diffence in serum and RBC (cell) levels. Nothing about utilization. One has to retest homocysteine for that, by changing the varying variables (B12, B9, B6, B2, etc. doses).

Isnt it the accumulation of folic acid bad?,,,,,I have read that (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6132377/)

That abstract concludes:

Inadequate folate intake or deficiency, as measured by serum levels, may increase risk for cancer, including cancers of the head and neck [18], oral cavity and pharynx [19], esophagus [21], pancreatic [21, 22], bladder [25], and cervix. Low intake combined with high alcohol intake may also increase the risk of breast cancer. Gene polymorphisms may add to risk in certain ethnic groups. Clinicians should aim to optimize dietary folate intake and/or consider supplementing intake in individuals at risk for or with known deficiency, for example those with alcohol dependence or malabsorption. Prospective studies are needed to identify what level of folate intake is needed to correct deficiency based on gene status and evaluate whether or not nutrient remediation in high-risk populations can mitigate cancer risk.

In addition, more research is needed to help understand if the protective effects of folate are weaker in populations with a relatively higher intake level from mandatory fortification and/or supplementation. Population concerns regarding fortification and increased cancer risk are challenged in the current research. Fortification status in studies did not have any impact on risk with supplementation [32•, 33•]. Fortification practices vary and increasing use of organic and gluten-free flours, which may not be fortified, may change population intake over time. More prospective, post-fortification work needs to be done in some populations. For example, the association between supplemental intake, elevated serum levels, and increased risk of prostate cancer should be explored in the context of gene variants. Clinicians should weigh the pros and cons of supplementation in the presence of adequate intake with individuals based on all risk factors for disease.

Doesn't concern me as much as the more certain cancer-risk of deficiency, but also in this study mentioned of high homocysteine, and my levels before any supplementation (ie. at that time after 40 years of my life, compared to 10 years supplemented after):

B9: 5,.7 ng/ml s. (4,6-18,7)
B12: 179 pmol/l s. (187-883)

I am not taking b2 because my OAT (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fC947L5qxWkOCG1vFUBomu5c73mAIJeL/view?usp=sharing) indicates I have it in the high range.

In this case I would first try balancing with where there is definitely lack of utilization (which an OAT tries to capture by usually measuring metabolites, instead of the vitamins themselves): In your case vitamin B6, vitamin C, CoQ10, and NAC.