• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Björn recovered from severe ME with antivirals (valganciclovir, ritonavir and isentress)

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,602
Location
United Kingdom
Learner1 means the right tests checking the right antibodies.

for EBV you have to get about 5 antibodies checked for it to be accurate.

1636978236021.png


I wouldn't take the + and - as gospel but these are the antibodies.

If you got a CMV elisa for example it would be useless. It has to be a CMV and HHV-6 titer test.

Although Learner1 is also talking about PCR's which are a little different, will let Learner explain that.
 

MartinK

Senior Member
Messages
388
@godlovesatrier I think Dr Martin Lerner and Jose Montoya had a little bit different "result reading".
@Hip roadmap it explains this very well. ...about 16x higher result etc.

Who is currently considered to have the highest capacity to read viral results? Chia? Has anything changed in "reading"? Is something missing me from research?

I personally have a big problem reading the results because according to Montoya criteria I am EBV positive, according to Lerner negative. My blood PCRs always negative, saliva PCR positive...
I hate this uncertainties! :-D :-/
 

GlassCannonLife

Senior Member
Messages
819
Learner1 means the right tests checking the right antibodies.

for EBV you have to get about 5 antibodies checked for it to be accurate.

View attachment 45644

I wouldn't take the + and - as gospel but these are the antibodies.

If you got a CMV elisa for example it would be useless. It has to be a CMV and HHV-6 titer test.

Although Learner1 is also talking about PCR's which are a little different, will let Learner explain that.

Thanks, I know what PCR tests are, I was just asking as she said that she had chronically low IgGs in general and standard tests weren't useful for her
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,602
Location
United Kingdom
I do know that your standard immoglobin test for igg can come back healthy (mine did). But your igg subclass testing can come back deficient.

So that's one way to diagnose an issue with immuglobins. Which won't necessarily show up on a standard test.

I learnt about this from a doctor on the s4me forum. Who is on antimicrobials for life but she's able to work full time and participate in life normally. She doesn't personally consider an igg subclass defiency part of ME but a seperate disease (which it is if you Google the organisations that deal with it).

But if this test is never done I wonder how many with ME might get misdiagnosed. The test is £300 privately but my GP has promised she will get it for me if my current tests do not go anywhere.
 

ChookityPop

Senior Member
Messages
600
I do know that your standard immoglobin test for igg can come back healthy (mine did). But your igg subclass testing can come back deficient.

So that's one way to diagnose an issue with immuglobins. Which won't necessarily show up on a standard test.

I learnt about this from a doctor on the s4me forum. Who is on antimicrobials for life but she's able to work full time and participate in life normally. She doesn't personally consider an igg subclass defiency part of ME but a seperate disease (which it is if you Google the organisations that deal with it).

But if this test is never done I wonder how many with ME might get misdiagnosed. The test is £300 privately but my GP has promised she will get it for me if my current tests do not go anywhere.

Thanks for Sharing. I got my doctor to test for igg subclasses as well and they turned out to be normal.

So with immunoglobulins within normal range there is no way you can have insufficient antibody production?
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,300
I do wonder about EBV, CMV, etc. The only things I seem to respond positively to are anti-pathogen herbs and medicines like allicin, monolaurin, andrographis, tinidazole, zithro, doxy, etc. I've gotten some tests over the years, but not the specific titers being discussed here sometimes. None of my doctors understand any of that, though.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,602
Location
United Kingdom
I wouldn't be surprised if there was further testing, or things we may not know about that cannot be isolated through testing. As many people agree ME is an immune defiency disease, there will be a reason for that, even if it doesn't show up on igg tests. Can't wait to eventually find out what the hell is going on there. I guess long covid research is the only thing liable to give us any indication as to what's wrong.

UK Medicine is a joke though, honestly even private doctors are bad, you just can't get the treatment and even if you can it would be horrendously expensive. I am not even sure if breakspear give out antiviral medication and even if they did treatments at breakspear run into the tens of thousands. Also UK medical insurance isn't very good either, the best policies are with companies that discount past medical history (if they don't do this your medical insurance is basically useless) - even then the small print varies a lot and every policy is different. You're forced to get a job at a company that has amazing medical insurance, just so you can get seen be good doctors. Even then I am not sure if antivirals would be a treatment or not, as UK testing in labs is sh**.

I guess maybe things might change on the back of covid, but I am not going to hold my breath.

@hapl808 if you ask me those things you list have small effects, but if someone is overwhelmed or compromised enough, the virus will out replicate them, or adapt over time. I wrote a blog post about this the other day, I still can't be 100% sure that joshuas protocol works for herpes, but IF it does work, it seems to take me 3 months from a vaccine to feel truly better. I've never got past 3 months so can't comment what the long term effects without any vaccines would be like.
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,300
@hapl808 if you ask me those things you list have small effects, but if someone is overwhelmed or compromised enough, the virus will out replicate them, or adapt over time. I wrote a blog post about this the other day, I still can't be 100% sure that joshuas protocol works for herpes, but IF it does work, it seems to take me 3 months from a vaccine to feel truly better. I've never got past 3 months so can't comment what the long term effects without any vaccines would be like.

Yeah, I'm thinking to try some of the anti-pathogen stuff (monolaurin, knotweed, skullcap, etc) combined with the reishi and beta glucans (which seem to help, but very minor effects for me). It's of course hard to know what's helping or harming when you're taking 20 things, though.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,602
Location
United Kingdom
Yep. It is hard to figure that out.

For example if I had decent pathogen tests for each crash cycle I've experienced the data would be invaluable! But it's very costly to get all this and the only two tests I can get easily are CMV and EBV and the ebv doesn't even include the EA so it's likely a waste of time. I also need tests, at my best, at my worst and ideally in any crashes that occur. Without that and the expense of it which is high, your just throwing darts at a dartboard hoping they will hit a bullseye.
 

ChookityPop

Senior Member
Messages
600
I wouldn't be surprised if there was further testing, or things we may not know about that cannot be isolated through testing. As many people agree ME is an immune defiency disease, there will be a reason for that, even if it doesn't show up on igg tests. Can't wait to eventually find out what the hell is going on there. I guess long covid research is the only thing liable to give us any indication as to what's wrong.

UK Medicine is a joke though, honestly even private doctors are bad, you just can't get the treatment and even if you can it would be horrendously expensive. I am not even sure if breakspear give out antiviral medication and even if they did treatments at breakspear run into the tens of thousands. Also UK medical insurance isn't very good either, the best policies are with companies that discount past medical history (if they don't do this your medical insurance is basically useless) - even then the small print varies a lot and every policy is different. You're forced to get a job at a company that has amazing medical insurance, just so you can get seen be good doctors. Even then I am not sure if antivirals would be a treatment or not, as UK testing in labs is sh**.

I guess maybe things might change on the back of covid, but I am not going to hold my breath.

@hapl808 if you ask me those things you list have small effects, but if someone is overwhelmed or compromised enough, the virus will out replicate them, or adapt over time. I wrote a blog post about this the other day, I still can't be 100% sure that joshuas protocol works for herpes, but IF it does work, it seems to take me 3 months from a vaccine to feel truly better. I've never got past 3 months so can't comment what the long term effects without any vaccines would be like.
I just found that I have Low Beta1 globulin and Low Pgamma globulin. And when I Googled it I found this - «Low levels of gamma globulins suggest the under-production of antibodies as found in certain genetic diseases (bubble boy agammaglobulinemia) and leukemia.»


So I might actually have under production of antibodies after all?
 

Cipher

Administrator
Messages
1,119
I just found that I have Low Beta1 globulin and Low Pgamma globulin. And when I Googled it I found this - «Low levels of gamma globulins suggest the under-production of antibodies as found in certain genetic diseases (bubble boy agammaglobulinemia) and leukemia.»


So I might actually have under production of antibodies after all?

That could make you eligible for IVIG, which has put some ME-patients in remission.
 

ChookityPop

Senior Member
Messages
600
Could even be the direct cause of your ME. Depending on whether you think it's a secondary effect or not.

Some of us are sadly undiagnosed and remain incorrectly diagnosed for quite some time.

Hope this helps you somehow.
Interesting! How do you think it could even be the direct cause for my ME?

I have had low normal earlier but my last test was in 2019 and now they are under the ref ranges.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,602
Location
United Kingdom
Well nobody knows for sure but what I mean is having a test like that might indicate a totally different diagnosis. If all your symptoms align with the test. And if your very lucky there might be treatments you can track down.

Gets you out of the mire of subsets and confusion that is ME/CFS.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Learner1 means the right tests checking the right antibodies.

for EBV you have to get about 5 antibodies checked for it to be accurate.

View attachment 45644

I wouldn't take the + and - as gospel but these are the antibodies.

If you got a CMV elisa for example it would be useless. It has to be a CMV and HHV-6 titer test.

Although Learner1 is also talking about PCR's which are a little different, will let Learner explain that.
The chart above is for EBV diagnosis and staging in immunocompetent people, not in those with immune defects. It is based on antibody production - I had high VCA IgG and no EBNA and EA when I should have for a reactivated infection. Or, on the chart here, for immunocompetent people, it says more investigation is needed:

Screenshot_20220201-072310.png

My other doctors didn't do the further investigation, and most people I've seen here have doctors who don't either.

A PCR finds the DNA of the active virus, primary or reactivated, so if it's postive, you have it. Too many people waste their time with EBV antibodies which are designed for staging, i.e. is it a first time infection, past infection, reactivated, etc.

Also, they may not always be in the blood if the virus is hiding in the tissues. It may go in and out of the blood over time, so that's why doing the tests multiple times is wise. Dr. Proal discusses hidden infections here.

So with immunoglobulins within normal range there is no way you can have insufficient antibody production?
Maybe not. You might not be producing the antibodies you should be.
That's great news, congratulations. What percentage of recovery would you estimate it gave you? Do you still use Kuvan?
I've had multiple types of treatments, for immune deficiency, multiple infections, autoimmunity, nutrient and hormone deficiencies, POTS, MCAS and mitochondrial dysfunction. They have all helped to a degree. I'm about 90% recovered - normal life much of the time around my treatment but if I push it, like this week when I walked 9.5 miles, 7.5 miles and 6.6 miles on successive days, I felt week and had to rest the 4th day.

Yes, I still take Kuvan, and it helps.
That would be amazing! I have some autoimmunity as well so my hope is that all those things combined could be enough to get to try IVIG.
How is that going for you? With your test results, what did your doctors say?
Well nobody knows for sure but what I mean is having a test like that might indicate a totally different diagnosis. If all your symptoms align with the test. And if your very lucky there might be treatments you can track down.

Gets you out of the mire of subsets and confusion that is ME/CFS.
I have 16 distinct diagnoses that are treatable, and finding and treating them has helped. I think most people with ME/CFS have very treatable problems their doctors have not yet found. It doesn't necessarily mean we don't have ME/CFS, which is a set of symptoms, just means we have diverse complex causes for those symptoms.
 

ChookityPop

Senior Member
Messages
600
How is that going for you? With your test results, what did your doctors say?
I have not been able to talk to my Dr about the Low Beta1 globulin and Low Pgamma globulin yet. Thanks for bringing it to my attention again I will ask my doctor about it in my next appointment.

I was/am hoping to get applied for IVIG for my immune mediated SFN. The thing is the medical care where I live does ONLY test for length dependant SFN (ankle biopsy) and not non length dependant SFN (thigh) like I have. I did get them to test my thigh as well due to the prevalence of normal ankle and abnormal thigh in those with TS-HDS.

Results from my thigh came back very low which they admitted was abnormal but they say they don't have normal ranges for thighs here and concludes with me not having SFN. Not offering an alternative diagnosis approach like sending a new biopsy to a respected lab like Mass general or Harvard. This infuriates me to no end. I have just sent a lengthy complaint and I will do all I can do to get IVIG.
 
Back