Big Mistake, Conspiracy, or Nothing Unusual?

[toddm1960]

Moderator Note: This thread was spun off from the following thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?10440-XMRV-amp-Blood-Supply-Webinar-Tuesday-Mar-29

I've been posting some stuff lately about conspriracy theories. I will try and back off for awhile, or keep it contained to threads I create with a warning label.

However, talking about CFS and not talking about conspiracy theories is kind of like talking about CFS without talking about XMRV in my opinion.

Pretty obvious there has been monkey business on the part of the CDC and other governments with their psychobabble and everything else. To me that is a conspriracy theory. For the CDC/MRC to release the psychobabble research (that we complain about here on a daily basis), while ignoring biological research for all these years is a major conspiracy. Beyond me how everybody can't see that part.

So yep, it is a conspiracy and to me is fascinating. However, I realize many folks somehow believe the science should change the mind of the agency making all the rules to the game.

By the way, sure many people at the CDC have no idea they are being manipulated.

If all of the members here that felt there are clear signs of a cover up stopped posting........you'd get about 5 posts a day. Why is this community afraid of it's own shadow? I've been sick 27 years and I also want answers before I die, so if some on here think I'm crazy.......well that's ok, the CDC tells me daily I am.

 

[Sherby]

Originally Posted by markmc20001

I've been posting some stuff lately about conspriracy theories. I will try and back off for awhile, or keep it contained to threads I create with a warning label.

However, talking about CFS and not talking about conspiracy theories is kind of like talking about CFS without talking about XMRV in my opinion.

Pretty obvious there has been monkey business on the part of the CDC and other governments with their psychobabble and everything else. To me that is a conspriracy theory. For the CDC/MRC to release the psychobabble research (that we complain about here on a daily basis), while ignoring biological research for all these years is a major conspiracy. Beyond me how everybody can't see that part.

So yep, it is a conspiracy and to me is fascinating. However, I realize many folks somehow believe the science should change the mind of the agency making all the rules to the game.

By the way, sure many people at the CDC have no idea they are being manipulated.


What firmly nails the conspiracy theory to the wall for me. As a UK citizen there was zero
coverage on the lo and alters confirmation of the WPI findings.
This news was spread round the world . i believed was covered by the Tehran Times. Also the speed of negative findings in the UK were out within a couple of months, which was covered in nearly all main stream media. Need i say more.

 

[markmc20001]

If all of the members here that felt there are clear signs of a cover up stopped posting........you'd get about 5 posts a day. Why is this community afraid of it's own shadow? I've been sick 27 years and I also want answers before I die, so if some on here think I'm crazy.......well that's ok, the CDC tells me daily I am.

True. We'll all have to put of with the differences of opinion I guess. I'm convinced there is major collaboration going on to execute this pandemic with bascailly zero response.

look at this.

Abstract:
Autism, a member of the pervasive developmental disorders (PDDs), has been increasing dramatically since its
description by Leo Kanner in 1943. First estimated to occur in 4 to 5 per 10,000 children, the incidence of autism
is now 1 per 110 in the United States, and 1 per 64 in the United Kingdom, with similar incidences throughout the
world. Searching information from 1943 to the present in PubMed and Ovid Medline databases, this review summarizes
results that correlate the timing of changes in incidence with environmental changes. Autism could result
from more than one cause, with different manifestations in different individuals that share common symptoms.
Documented causes of autism include genetic mutations and/or deletions, viral infections, and encephalitis following
vaccination. Therefore, autism is the result of genetic defects and/or inflammation of the brain. The inflammation
could be caused by a defective placenta, immature blood-brain barrier, the immune response of the mother
to infection while pregnant, a premature birth, encephalitis in the child after birth, or a toxic environment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21299355

what a dang mess. It's already too late to change course. were are all screwed.

 

[Cloud]

If all of the members here that felt there are clear signs of a cover up stopped posting........you'd get about 5 posts a day. Why is this community afraid of it's own shadow? I've been sick 27 years and I also want answers before I die, so if some on here think I'm crazy.......well that's ok, the CDC tells me daily I am.

Very well said Todd.

 

[urbantravels]

I pre-registered, and watched the thing live, so I'll let know when they post the "archive" version and see if there is any way it can be shared.

As for conspiracy theories, where do you draw the line between 'conspiracy' and the well-known institutional phenomena of groupthink, communal reinforcement, and confirmation bias? A conspiracy is actually pretty hard to keep together, but these kinds of mental mistakes can keep screwy ideas going and accepted as self-evident truth for a very long time. They are common to those who identify with a group, a profession, or an institution.

It's less satisfying, I know, to think that mere intellectual laziness and institutional pigheadedness could have perpetrated such an awful legacy of misdirection and neglect than to think that something really important and evil is being deliberately covered up. By extension, it makes us seem more important than we really are.

We are just as important as any group of sick people - no more and no less - and no question we've gotten way more than our fair share of neglect and abuse from the medical and scientific community. But I'd look for the reasons why in prevailing habits of thought and patterns of institutional behavior ... not in secret cabals meeting at midnight in skull-lined caverns.

 

[WillowJ]

true, urbantravels; I do think that accounts for the broad brush picture

part of the issue here on the forums, though, is that anyone who comments on the results of either conspiracy or groupthink or whathaveyou, even without assigning a cause, is likely to be told they are promoting conspiracy theories (and posing a threat to research and our collective future). Floydguy had the perfect response to this.

 

[Cloud]

I don't think any of these Gov health agencies have ever conspired to deliberately harm us in some way (which is one definition of conspiracy). But I do believe in a cover up to protect their faces, as..es, and other interests. Those actions and inaction's, are what could be called "willful neglect" (which by it's very definition, and the fact that they aren't copping to it, could also meet the definition of conspiracy).

It may be a problem if people were attempting to convert others to their view about conspiracies and cover-ups (and, depending on who your talking with, the definition of conspiracy can be quite varied), but I don't see that happening. Instead, most are just discussing their views and concerns with others who may be interested. So, I see no problem here. We all have a right to share our views as long as they are within forum rules (and of course forum etiquette) . Personally, I don't feel that cover up and conspiracy talk is detrimental to our cause. The nature of this problem (political interference) is much bigger than to be affected by our chat about these issues. I believe it's more to our detriment to keep quiet.

"The CDC's nefarious past is becoming their nefarious present"

 

[toddm1960]

I maybe over looked the most important part of this forum, blowing off some steam. Many of us like me don't get out and see many people, is nice to have a common group to let it all out to (sometimes it might sound crazy) but still it makes me feel better. Even when I'm dead wrong and others correct me, it's nice to learn new stuff.

 

[markmc20001]

Glad we broke the ice on this topic. Be good to create a seperate thread and discuss a little more openly since most people acknowledge there is some possiblity of something going on. I might do it later this week. Not there enough mentally today.

 

[Sing]

As for conspiracy theories, where do you draw the line between 'conspiracy' and the well-known institutional phenomena of groupthink, communal reinforcement, and confirmation bias? A conspiracy is actually pretty hard to keep together, but these kinds of mental mistakes can keep screwy ideas going and accepted as self-evident truth for a very long time. They are common to those who identify with a group, a profession, or an institution.

It's less satisfying, I know, to think that mere intellectual laziness and institutional pigheadedness could have perpetrated such an awful legacy of misdirection and neglect than to think that something really important and evil is being deliberately covered up. By extension, it makes us seem more important than we really are.

We are just as important as any group of sick people - no more and no less - and no question we've gotten way more than our fair share of neglect and abuse from the medical and scientific community. But I'd look for the reasons why in prevailing habits of thought and patterns of institutional behavior ... not in secret cabals meeting at midnight in skull-lined caverns.

Well said, urbantravels--I would generally agree with this point of view. When you look at history and the massive errors in judgment we have made about other countries, etc. I think of two-time Pulitzer Prize winning historian Barbara Tuchman's March of Folly, about various wars we have gotten into. Think of Pearl Harbor. Our government had broken the Japanese secret code MAGIC. We had all the information. The only thing we lacked was belief that the Japanese would try such a stunt. They did and set us back on our a**es for years more of war. The list goes on.

Then too there is territoriality and ego, about holding onto information, what is shared or not shared. Not just the interpretations which are put upon it, coming from the current beliefs, no matter how far from reality. Being scientific doesn't seem to come naturally to people!

 

[floydguy]

Well said, urbantravels--I would generally agree with this point of view. When you look at history and the massive errors in judgment we have made about other countries, etc. I think of two-time Pulitzer Prize winning historian Barbara Tuchman's March of Folly, about various wars we have gotten into. Think of Pearl Harbor. Our government had broken the Japanese secret code MAGIC. We had all the information. The only thing we lacked was belief that the Japanese would try such a stunt. They did and set us back on our a**es for years more of war. The list goes on.

Then too there is territoriality and ego, about holding onto information, what is shared or not shared. Not just the interpretations which are put upon it, coming from the current beliefs, no matter how far from reality. Being scientific doesn't seem to come naturally to people!

Well, of course, there are those that believe that Roosevelt et al were egging the Japanse on so that the US had the excuse it needed to get into the war against the Axis Powers. Remember back then the US had a very isolationist foreign policy perspective. We didn't feel the need to have a military presence all over the place and didn't get involved in things that didn't affect us directly. We let the Brits do that. Maybe they'd like that role back?

 

[urbantravels]

I found a nice and very applicable quote from a Tolstoy essay in the Wikipedia article on confirmation bias (which is well worth reading in its entirety, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)

I know that most mennot only those considered clever, but even those who are very clever, and capable of understanding most difficult scientific, mathematical, or philosophic problemscan very seldom discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as to oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed, perhaps with much difficultyconclusions of which they are proud, which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their lives.

 

[garcia]

Well, of course, there are those that believe that Roosevelt et al were egging the Japanse on so that the US had the excuse it needed to get into the war against the Axis Powers. Remember back then the US had a very isolationist foreign policy perspective.

Yes this is a much more credible scenario, e.g. see Day of deceit - the truth about FDR & Pearl Harbor

The US wanted the Japanese to attack so they could be drawn into the war. The US has been waging perpetual war ever since.

We didn't feel the need to have a military presence all over the place and didn't get involved in things that didn't affect us directly. We let the Brits do that. Maybe they'd like that role back?

Both the British and American empires have been disastrous for the world, especially the non-white world. The sooner both are confined to the dustbin of history the better.

 

[eric_s]

But i don't know if i'd prefer the Chinese to take over...

 

[markmc20001]

Can a moderator please lop off #103 on and create a new thread in "other health news and research"? Be good to have a rational debate on conspiracies(not the skull and crossbone type conspiracies, but some strange intentional skewing of the facts regarding CFS/ME) I would propose a thread title called "big mistake, conspiracy, or nothing unusual".

Be much better than the subject coming up in unrelated threads all the time. Be more contained, people could find it or ignore it. Better all the way around.

The majority here seem to think there is a mistake, or worse yet a conspiracy, that has affected research and politics over all these years around CFS/ME.

 

[floydguy]

I found a nice and very applicable quote from a Tolstoy essay in the Wikipedia article on confirmation bias (which is well worth reading in its entirety, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)

Yeah, I'd certainly agree with this. The other thing to amazes is that people who are very knowledgeable in one area automatically assume they are equally smart in areas they know absolutely nothing about.

 

[markmc20001]

About confirmation bias. Fascinating. So all the people that are reading the mainstream media may form an opinion. I guess it's possible those people form a sort of confirmation bias based on everything they think they have learned from the false media propaganda. Therefore the propaganda is kind of a self reinforcing mechanism. Fits kind of nice.

note: Agree with Eric S about the Chinese taking over if/when western economies collapse. My thought exactly.

 

[Cloud]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BO1kN4BJygs

 

[Bevbh]

I like this thread and the fact it was spun off. It is kind of hard to keep my perspective when I get scared by news like this latest recombinative virus/vaccine stuff. Molly Ivins had a rule of thumb that went something like - if it can be explained by greed or stupidity then those are more likely than a conspiracy. I guess we can add more things like ego, covering one's derriere, group think, etc. I dont know if there is a clear line when it bleeds over to conspiracy.

Having this disease has been such a baffling experience and I'm kind of stunned that it just keeps on coming with more confusion.

 

[Mark]

Hanlon's Razor, perhaps?

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor