Could D-Lactate be the source of Toxic Brain Cells and damage to Mitochondria resulting in Dysfunction and Fragmentation?

[Avenger]

THE FIRST 21 POSTS IN THIS THREAD HAVE BEEN MOVED FROM THE FOLLOWING THREAD, AS THEY WERE OFF-TOPIC:
Bhupesh Prusty: "we are on a perfect path for identifying potential transferable factors in ME/CFS blood that can cause mito dysfunction..." GoFundMe

Sorry if I missed it, but did / has Prusty identified the “something” in the serum that causes the mitochondria to fission?

Could D-Lactate be the source of Toxic Brain Cells and damage to Mitochondria resulting in Dysfunction and Fragmentation? D-Lactic acid enters every cell and affects every organ including the Brain?

D-Lactate and other Organic acids are the end product of 'hidden infections' because at high levels of Bacterial Overgrowth act as an infection, but without raising temperature, because only the Neurotoxins exit the Gut and can be found in Spinal Fluid and Brain Cells (possibly driven by a number of environmental factors including antibiotics and Virus replication in Gut Bacteria).

Reactivation could also come from Gut Bacteria that 'house' the Virus as Bacteriophage as part of the Lysogenic cycle ready to reactivate Lytic and Lysogenic cycles, that can advantage some species of Gut Bacteria that have mutated ability to become dominant because some Virus can endow Bacteria to destroy other Bacteria causing Overgrowth and Dysbiosys.

 

[Iknovate]

Could D-Lactate be the source of Toxic Brain Cells and damage to Mitochondria resulting in Dysfunction and Fragmentation. D-Lactic acid enters every cell and affects every organ?

D-Lactate and other Organic acids are the end product of 'hidden infections' because at high levels of Bacterial Overgrowth act as an infection, but without raising temperature, because only the Neurotoxins exit the Gut and can be found in Spinal Fluid and Brain Cells (possibly driven by a number of environmental factors including antibiotics and Virus replication in Gut Bacteria).

I'm intrigued. Can you say more?

I'm trying to decipher my own clues:
5 positive Borrelia bands
EBV, HSV, HHV-6, CMV, Micoplasma pneumoniae, high (most over the highest measure)

I'm pretty sure there are major compromised gut factors, but which comes first, the viral loads affecting the gut or the gut spiking the viral loads? And where to start to unravel it all?

 

[Avenger]

I'm intrigued. Can you say more?

I'm trying to decipher my own clues:
5 positive Borrelia bands
EBV, HSV, HHV-6, CMV, Micoplasma pneumoniae, high (most over the highest measure)

I'm pretty sure there are major compromised gut factors, but which comes first, the viral loads affecting the gut or the gut spiking the viral loads? And where to start to unravel it all?

We need to run investigations to be able to find how many ME/CFS this affects as Sheedy et al. below. The University have now modified their first statement to include 'normalisation of Leaky Gut is accompanied by improvement in ME/CFS'. D-Lactate damages the Gut membrane to produce secondary effects from translocation. These factors (D-Lactate and other Organic Acids) can be found in Blood, Spinal Fluid and Brain Cells during exacerbation when the body is unable to detoxify or excrete D-Lactate.

Increased d-lactic Acid intestinal bacteria in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome
John R Sheedy 1, Richard E H Wettenhall, Denis Scanlon, Paul R Gooley, Donald P Lewis, Neil McGregor, David I Stapleton, Henry L Butt, Kenny L DE Meirleir
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 19567398

Free article
Abstract
Patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) are affected by symptoms of cognitive dysfunction and neurological impairment, the cause of which has yet to be elucidated. However, these symptoms are strikingly similar to those of patients presented with D-lactic acidosis. A significant increase of Gram positive facultative anaerobic faecal microorganisms in 108 CFS patients as compared to 177 control subjects (p<0.01) is presented in this report. The viable count of D-lactic acid producing Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. in the faecal samples from the CFS group (3.5 x 10(7) cfu/L and 9.8 x 10(7) cfu/L respectively) were significantly higher than those for the control group (5.0 x 10(6) cfu/L and 8.9 x 10(4) cfu/L respectively). Analysis of exometabolic profiles of Enterococcus faecalis and Streptococcus sanguinis, representatives of Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. respectively, by NMR and HPLC showed that these organisms produced significantly more lactic acid (p<0.01) from (13)C-labeled glucose, than the Gram negative Escherichia coli. Further, both E. faecalis and S. sanguinis secrete more D-lactic acid than E. coli. This study suggests a probable link between intestinal colonization of Gram positive facultative anaerobic D-lactic acid bacteria and symptom expressions in a subgroup of patients with CFS. Given the fact that this might explain not only neurocognitive dysfunction in CFS patients but also mitochondrial dysfunction, these findings may have important clinical implications.
Similar articles

• Normalization of leaky gut in chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is accompanied by a clinical improvement: effects of age, duration of illness and the translocation of LPS from gram-negative bacteria.

 

[Learner1]

@Avenger It is difficult to read all of your bolded text in your 2 posts above. Can you please only bold what you wish to emphasize?

@Rufous McKinney, Assuming mitochondrial disfunction causes CFS, why aren't mitochondrial stimulants like Q10 helping?

CoQ10 only helps one part of mitochondrial function. It helps if you have a problem with that specific thing. I know patients helped by 24g CoQ10 daily. The attached paper explains other nutrients that might be helpful, but again, they help if you have problems that they will help with.

My personal experience is that my CozQ10 is always high normal, but I need other nutrients like phospholipids, ALA, B2, B2 and NAD+ more.

I'm intrigued. Can you say more?

I'm trying to decipher my own clues:
5 positive Borrelia bands
EBV, HSV, HHV-6, CMV, Micoplasma pneumoniae, high (most over the highest measure)

I'm pretty sure there are major compromised gut factors, but which comes first, the viral loads affecting the gut or the gut spiking the viral loads? And where to start to unravel it all?

Supporting the immune system and microbiome as a foundation, then treating the infections would be helpful. That's what my doctors did. I wasn't successful treating the infections until my immune system was adequately supported, but then Valcyte for a similar group if herpes infections got an extended time and then antibiotics for the bacterial infections helped. And replenishing depleted nutrients, particularly mito nutrients.

 

[Iknovate]

@Learner1
That report is magical. Still like having a magic wand without the ability to use it, but the potential is inspiring.

 

[Learner1]

@Learner1
That report is magical. Still like having a magic wand without the ability to use it, but the potential is inspiring.

It is! It is definitely usable now. It takes understanding how to apply it to ones own situation, though.

 

[stefanosstef]

Could D-Lactate be the source of Toxic Brain Cells and damage to Mitochondria resulting in Dysfunction and Fragmentation? D-Lactic acid enters every cell and affects every organ including the Brain?

D-Lactate and other Organic acids are the end product of 'hidden infections' because at high levels of Bacterial Overgrowth act as an infection, but without raising temperature, because only the Neurotoxins exit the Gut and can be found in Spinal Fluid and Brain Cells (possibly driven by a number of environmental factors including antibiotics and Virus replication in Gut Bacteria).

Reactivation could also come from Gut Bacteria that 'house' the Virus as Bacteriophage as part of the Lysogenic cycle ready to reactivate Lytic and Lysogenic cycles, that can advantage some species of Gut Bacteria that have mutated ability to become dominant because some Virus can endow Bacteria to destroy other Bacteria causing Overgrowth and Dysbiosys.

Any sources about that to check?

 

[Bobby Peru]

This is a copy-and-paste of a description of D-lactic acidosis. Perhaps, it is not as rare as described. Personally, I have experienced delayed crashes after carb-heavy meals such as pasta.

• D-lactic acidosis, also referred to as D-lactate encephalopathy, is a rare neurologic syndrome that occurs in individuals with short bowel syndrome or following jejuno-ileal bypass surgery. Symptoms typically present after the ingestion of high-carbohydrate feedings.
• Neurologic symptoms include altered mental status, slurred speech, and ataxia, with patients often appearing drunk. Onset of neurologic symptoms is accompanied by metabolic acidosis and elevation of plasma D-lactate concentration. In these patients, malabsorbed carbohydrate is fermented by an abnormal bacterial flora in the colon, which produces excessive amounts of D-lactate.
• High amounts of D-lactate are absorbed into the circulation, resulting in an elevated concentration of D-lactate in the blood. Development of neurologic symptoms has been attributed to D-lactate, but it is unclear if this is the cause or whether other factors are responsible.

 

[stefanosstef]

I asked because according to my neurologist this is a very serious condition and it's rare.It's impossible to have it and not be sure.Not to be taken as a gospel but I am just posting his input.

 

[Avenger]

This is a copy-and-paste of a description of D-lactic acidosis. Perhaps, it is not as rare as described. Personally, I have experienced delayed crashes after carb-heavy meals such as pasta.

• D-lactic acidosis, also referred to as D-lactate encephalopathy, is a rare neurologic syndrome that occurs in individuals with short bowel syndrome or following jejuno-ileal bypass surgery. Symptoms typically present after the ingestion of high-carbohydrate feedings.
• Neurologic symptoms include altered mental status, slurred speech, and ataxia, with patients often appearing drunk. Onset of neurologic symptoms is accompanied by metabolic acidosis and elevation of plasma D-lactate concentration. In these patients, malabsorbed carbohydrate is fermented by an abnormal bacterial flora in the colon, which produces excessive amounts of D-lactate.
• High amounts of D-lactate are absorbed into the circulation, resulting in an elevated concentration of D-lactate in the blood. Development of neurologic symptoms has been attributed to D-lactate, but it is unclear if this is the cause or whether other factors are responsible.

Hi Bobby Peru and stefanosstef,
yes the crashes that I have are delayed. I have a diagnosis of D-La; but after 20 years of being diagnosed with ME/CFS and even Fibromyalgia my own belief is that is is not as uncommon as believed (see report by Gastroenterologist Luke White below and Sheedy et al. I have put these on before, but have a lot of faith in these authors that you may not have seen). D-La like C.Diff is just a form of Bacterial Overgrowth or a side effect of IBS-C/IBS-D; but with these problems other systemic symptoms are not properly taken into account by Doctors and there may be other milder organic acids that where motility and abdominal pain/bloating are the only symptoms.

My main belief is that anyone who can gain Bacterial Overgrowth would not be precluded from D-Lactic producing Bacteria. But in those with resection etc. it is more rife or pronounced. Many with ME/CFS with Gastrointestinal symptoms may be sub-clinical for D-Lactate with levels fluctuating into more serious symptoms, but without easily accessible tests all other investigations for ME/CFS will remain normal (as those with D-Lactic acidosis also have unremarkable blood investigations despite serious symptoms during exacerbation's except for Blood Gasses and D-Lactate which are rarely if never performed for ME/CFS). It is also possible that we could suffer allergy to D-Lactic acid at sub-clinical levels.

During milder periods of illness my symptoms are often only; abnormal fatigue, systemic symptoms including pain, headaches, ringing ears, gastrointestinal symptoms including delayed stomach emptying, reflux or feeling sick, with delayed symptoms after activity, and more pronounced symptoms; including breathing difficulty and hyperventilation, memory and cognitive difficulty (from dizzy to drunk like). I believe that this may all come down to levels of 'infection' or Overgrowth, because D-Lactic Bacterial Overgrowth is a hidden infection that makes me feel like I have Flu Symptoms at times; it is hidden because I do not generate a temperature when I am unwell, because (mainly) only the metabolites enter my bloodstream. It is also probable that there may be a number of other Organic Acids that can cause similar symptoms.

It is also my belief that this misguided understanding of D-Lactic acidosis has led to the belief that it is rare and only exists for resection/jejunal-ileo bypass patients. Hence the delay in understanding ME/CFS who have levels of D-Lactic acidosis.

https://med.virginia.edu/ginutrition/wp-content/uploads/sites/199/2014/06/Parrish-September-15.pdf

NUTRITION ISSUES IN GASTROENTEROLOGY, SERIES #145 Luke White, D.O. Department of Critical Care Medicine, Memorial Hospital, South Bend, IN D-Lactic Acidosis: More Prevalent Than We Think?
Luke White, D.O. Department of Critical Care Medicine, Memorial Hospital, South Bend;

''D-lactate acidosis, in which the D-isomer of lactate accumulates, may be more prevalent than once thought. This uncommon disorder has been reported in the setting of short bowel syndrome, and in particular, with high carbohydrate diets in children. Mental status changes and gait instability, the classic symptoms of D-lactate buildup, may not immediately lead the clinician to consider this uncommon disorder. The purpose of this article is to present information about D-lactate that will increase the readers’ level of vigilance for this disorder, which affects a broader group of patients than initially thought.''

Jul-Aug 2009;23(4):621-8.
Increased d-lactic Acid intestinal bacteria in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome
John R Sheedy 1, Richard E H Wettenhall, Denis Scanlon, Paul R Gooley, Donald P Lewis, Neil McGregor, David I Stapleton, Henry L Butt, Kenny L DE Meirleir
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 19567398

Free article
Abstract
Patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) are affected by symptoms of cognitive dysfunction and neurological impairment, the cause of which has yet to be elucidated. However, these symptoms are strikingly similar to those of patients presented with D-lactic acidosis. A significant increase of Gram positive facultative anaerobic faecal microorganisms in 108 CFS patients as compared to 177 control subjects (p<0.01) is presented in this report. The viable count of D-lactic acid producing Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. in the faecal samples from the CFS group (3.5 x 10(7) cfu/L and 9.8 x 10(7) cfu/L respectively) were significantly higher than those for the control group (5.0 x 10(6) cfu/L and 8.9 x 10(4) cfu/L respectively). Analysis of exometabolic profiles of Enterococcus faecalis and Streptococcus sanguinis, representatives of Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. respectively, by NMR and HPLC showed that these organisms produced significantly more lactic acid (p<0.01) from (13)C-labeled glucose, than the Gram negative Escherichia coli. Further, both E. faecalis and S. sanguinis secrete more D-lactic acid than E. coli. This study suggests a probable link between intestinal colonization of Gram positive facultative anaerobic D-lactic acid bacteria and symptom expressions in a subgroup of patients with CFS. Given the fact that this might explain not only neurocognitive dysfunction in CFS patients but also mitochondrial dysfunction, these findings may have important clinical implications.
Similar articles

• Normalization of leaky gut in chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is accompanied by a clinical improvement: effects of age, duration of illness and the translocation of LPS from gram-negative bacteria.

 

[Bobby Peru]

Hello, Avenger. Thank you very much for your post.

• My symptoms are very similar to yours minus the headaches and breathing problems. Crashes seem to come out of nowhere with extreme fatigue, constipation and low back pain.
• My infectious disease doctor diagnosed me with SIBO (Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth) and I took the generic version of Xifaxin 550mg. Xifaxin is a coated antibiotic designed to make it to the small intestine. I noticed significant improvement after a strong Herx reaction.
• I now wonder if the Xifaxin was not also attacking problem-causing bacteria in the colon which were causing D-Lactate issues.
• Question: Have you found anything that works?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I asked because according to my neurologist this is a very serious condition and it's rare.It's impossible to have it and not be sure.Not to be taken as a gospel but I am just posting his input.

I think the problem is you can have something like this "acidosus" and its a chronic, ongoing serious condition...rare.

Then there is something else, called- momentary or episodes of- lactic acid build up. So we don't have the genetic, chronic permanent thing, we have - episodes.

 

[Avenger]

Hello, Avenger. Thank you very much for your post.

• My symptoms are very similar to yours minus the headaches and breathing problems. Crashes seem to come out of nowhere with extreme fatigue, constipation and low back pain.
• My infectious disease doctor diagnosed me with SIBO (Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth) and I took the generic version of Xifaxin 550mg. Xifaxin is a coated antibiotic designed to make it to the small intestine. I noticed significant improvement after a strong Herx reaction.
• I now wonder if the Xifaxin was not also attacking problem-causing bacteria in the colon which were causing D-Lactate issues.
• Question: Have you found anything that works?

Hi Bobby Peru,
Yes my problems also come in fluctuating episodes. I can be ill for a day, weeks or months with symptoms that can be mild but still debilitating to severe, but also with remissions or I can have months of what appear almost continuous fatigue and pain. I have found nothing that works 100% so far, hence my interest in resetting my microbiome through FMT. Diet helps but I have found it to be very difficult to maintain and family members often give me the wrong foods to eat.

I have used antibiotics for a long time, which work on a temporary basis, with overgrowth returning possibly because the underlying issues remain untreated. But antibiotics can also cause further problems in depleting the microbiome and leaving it open for further assaults from other competing Bacteria that can lead to disease. C.Diff is an example of this. There is no full understanding of how each different Antibiotics affects particular species of Bacteria, composition, ratios of Bacteria needed for healthy digestion; but I could not have survived without them. The alternative would be unthinkable.

Antibiotics may also reduce neurotransmitters produced in the microbiome such as Seratonin which also takes part in motility, sleeping eating and digestion. But I found Metronidazole and Tinnidazole to be the best acting (although side effects while taking).

''Gut bacteria both produce and respond to the same neurochemicals—such as GABA, serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, acetylcholine and melatonin—that the brain uses to regulate mood and cognition.''

The Microbiome is not fixed entity and lots of things affect my motility which appears to be a possible underlying central issue (although it could also be that levels of hydrogen and methane produced through overgrowth can vary and the production in these gasses at high levels may be what is perpetuating periods of poor motility for me and allowing D-Lactic acid to be produced in the small intestine). I believe that Viral infections also target the Gut and can cause Overgrowth.


Probiotics can also have both positive and negative effects depending on your own particular microbiome and what Organic acids you are producing due to Overgrowth or Depletion. Some probiotics may be suitable for you but not for others. I have read repeatedly that D-Lactic producing Probiotics may cause worsening D-Lactic symptoms, but I did well using Symprove; but it was far too expensive for me to purchase, because I found it most effective at double the dosage. I am now looking into Sacccharomyces Boulardii;

https://www.google.com/search?q=saccharomyces+boulardii+fungus
S. boulardii is a tropical yeast that was discovered in Asia by a French scientist (Henri Boulard) in 1920, who noticed that people drinking tea made from the skins of tropical fruit didn’t fall ill during a cholera outbreak — a potentially serious infection of the small intestine.

Now Saccharomyces boulardii is a recognised probiotic that can help with IBS, Crohn’s disease, diarrhea, and a range of gastrointestinal infections. Officially known as Saccharomyces cerevisiae boulardii, it is a subspecies of the Saccharomyces cerevisiae (baker’s yeast).

There are many different probiotics with Saccharomyces boulardii. Some are enhanced with prebiotics (MOS), and others are mixed with probiotic bacteria. ''


The Science behind the Microbiome is unraveling to be highly complex and may not be fully understood in our lifetimes. Our Microbiome is millions of years in developing and we throw things like Fluoride and Chlorine; and Hormonal, Antibiotics, biphenol-A and Opiates and other Chemicals are leaching back into tap water. These Chemicals together have unpredictable effects on the Microbiome and our cellular structures. I would drink only bottled mineral water if I could afford it. Has anyone looked into the best bottled mineral waters without contaminants?

There are a few possible choices for treatments; Diet consisting of low or very Low Carbohydrate or FODMAP Diet which uses only Carbohydrates that do not ferment in the small intestine. I also had temporary success with Low Dosage Naltrexone and may return to try it again.

We need extensive Gut investigations, from Motility to Bacterial Composition, Organic Acids produced etc. but this is not happening through the NHS who prefer to refer to these Gut symptoms as Psychological; because NHS Science is many decades outdated and Doctors have no idea about this unexplored continent, but are only too willing to go down the Psychological rout or offer drugs that may have further side effects.

We have only ourselves and It all comes down to trial and error. There is no absolute pathway, because we may all have similar but different Microbiome compositions and underlying issues affecting them. Even FMT has had some failures, but I am willing to trial this.

 

[Avenger]

I asked because according to my neurologist this is a very serious condition and it's rare.It's impossible to have it and not be sure.Not to be taken as a gospel but I am just posting his input.

Hi steffanosstef,
this is the real problem, because many Neurologists are not trained in abnormal Neurology caused by Bacterial Overgrowth such as D-Lactic acidosis. I was diagnosed 20 years ago by a Neurologist as having Somatization disorder (Psychological) due to the number of symptoms that I had reported. That diagnosis went a long way in delaying the real cause of my symptoms.

Most Doctors and many Consultants including most Gastroenterologists are not trained to understand D-Lactic acidosis (I have been told this time and time again).

D-Lactic acidosis is just a form of IBS and it is unlikely that anyone would be precluded from developing an overgrowth of D-Lactic producing bacteria just because they have not had 'Short Bowel/Jejunal Surgery'; although it may only appear rare because those with short bowel etc. have elevated symptoms; the level of Bacterial Overgrowth or driving causation including Motility changes produced by the Overgrowth waste products causing self perpetuating conditions.

''Research indicates that there are multiple causes for the symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), and that most of them may involve the microbiome. IBS remains poorly understood and the drugs available to treat it usually offer symptomatic relief rather than tackling the underlying cause. Some scientists believe one reason IBS has proven hard to crack is because the cause of the syndrome probably differs from patient to patient — and this feature explains how understanding this may lead to better, more tailored, treatments.''

Understanding irritable bowel syndrome: bugs, brains and ...
https://pharmaceutical-journal.com › article › feature

1. by A Gray — According to Robin Spiller, a gastroenterologist specialising in IBS at the ... based at University College Cork in the Republic of Ireland, calls IBS “the ... “It looks like IBS will turn out to be tens of diseases or more,” says Talley. ... in rats: implications for irritable bowel syndrome and psychiatric illnesses.
2. Research indicates that there are multiple causes for the symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), and that most of them may involve the microbiome. IBS remains poorly understood and the drugs available to treat it usually offer symptomatic relief rather than tackling the underlying cause. Some scientists believe one reason IBS has proven hard to crack is because the cause of the syndrome probably differs from patient to patient — and this feature explains how understanding this may lead to better, more tailored, treatments.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28233180/

 

[stefanosstef]

@Avenger I really appreciate your research and your citations, I checked them all.I will definitely try Saccharomyces Boulardii, it looks really promising.I have many expenses on experiments and refills this period and I may delay it a bit (rhodiola, nad+, nadh, ITPP, some peptides, ibudilast).
Please share your results with us

How do you think this one will pair with potato starch?I am thinking it should help it be more effective by feeding it.
I am suspecting D-lactic acid buildup, because I've recently realized I get poisoned after high carb meals.
A couple of weeks ago it happened for the 4th time and that was the time I connected the dots.Initially I suspected it was the dressing on the pasta that made me sick (diarrhea the next day that lasted at least 1 day).
After changing dressing or even making my own I realized it was the pasta that caused the problem, because those 4 times I ate quite more quantity than usual, about 1.5 portion of pasta for lunch and 1.5 portion for dinner.Pasta doesn't satiate me so I ate more.

I'm not a doctor and I just got my feet wet on acidocis but I don't understand why D-lactic acid (or other metabolites that somehow relate to it) poisoning can't have variating levels of symptoms.What you say makes sense.

 

[Avenger]

Dear Stefannostef,
Just put the message below on the 'Brian Nicholson Detained' thread; A number of researchers are now relating changes to the Gut Microbiota composition as possible implication or causation of Long-Covid;
2 reports bottom of page; (I am not well at the moment and more angry than ever at the actions of some Psychiatrists who are putting all of us through hell).


These Psychiatrists make me so angry; for many years IBS has been seen by Psychiatrists as caused by psychological stress and I recently read of a Psychiatrist trying to equate early psychological stress down to causing IBS due to stressors on the Gut Brain Axis and hence later Psychological issues due to IBS. Firstly I cannot see how they could have made measurements of these Gut Stressors with evidence based changes to the Gut Microbiome when so little is still known about the Microbiome and many other Scientists are relating changes in Gut Microbiota as the basis of changes such as Seratonin and other neurotransmitters and there may be many forms if IBS.

IBS, Gut Dysfunction and ME/CFS often go hand in hand and I believe that at least a subset may have Organic Acid poisoning from Bacterial Overgrowth that constitutes IBS and can cause many of ME/CFS symptoms.

D-Lactic acidosis is just a form of IBS and it is unlikely that anyone would be precluded from developing an overgrowth of D-Lactic producing bacteria just because they have not had 'Short Bowel/Jejunal Surgery'; although it may only appear rare because those with short bowel etc. have very elevated symptoms.

Many Neurologists are not trained in abnormal Neurology caused by Bacterial Overgrowth such as D-Lactic acidosis. I was diagnosed 20 years ago by a Neurologist as having Somatization disorder (Psychological) due to the number of symptoms that I had reported. That diagnosis went a long way in delaying the real cause of my symptoms.

Most Doctors and many Consultants including most Gastroenterologists are not trained to understand D-Lactic acidosis (I have been told this time and time again).

I cannot understand how these Psychiatrists who come under the banner of 'Hippocratic oath' can be paid to abuse us; get caught after fixing the Pace Trials tailored to save the Government from paying disability benefits and then continue to assault us when they do not fully understand the Microbiome which may also be implicated in Long-Covid (Gut Microbiota remains a target for Virus that can benefit advantage some Bacteria and cause Gut Dysbiosis).

Make-up of gut microbiome may influence COVID ... - The BMJ
https://www.bmj.com › company › newsroom › make-up-...


Imbalances in type and volume of bacteria may also be implicated in 'long COVID' The variety and volume of bacteria in the gut, known as the microbiome, may ...


https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/...-gut-bacteria-and-bodys-response-to-covid-19/
JANUARY 11, 2021
expert reaction to observational study on gut bacteria and body’s response to COVID-19

An observational study, published in Gut, looks at gut microbiota composition, COVID-19 severity and immune response.

Prof Daniel M Davis, Professor of Immunology at the University of Manchester, said:

‘Our knowledge of gut microbes has exploded in recent years. Variations have been associated with diseases as diverse as asthma, multiple sclerosis and cancer. So it’s perhaps not so surprising that the severity of COVID-19 also correlates with the composition of a person’s microbiome. But the details here are important. A particularly striking finding was that distinct characteristics in a person’s gut microbes persisted after clearance of the virus. It is possible that these changes could contribute to the symptoms of so-called ‘Long-COVID’. At the moment this idea is still speculative but it demands further investigation, especially given the huge importance of understanding ‘Long-COVID’. Overall, this new research doesn’t yet led to a clear public health message in terms of treatments or therapies, but does set the scene for a hugely important realm of new science.’

If so then, could not any Virus be implicated in ME/CFS which may have much in common with long-Covid. My own symptoms started after Glandular Fever as did many others. Could not long term changes to the Microbiome be a root cause for many of us with ME/CFS with Gastrointestinal symptoms rather than Psychological?

My own belief is that the reason that we cannot get a diagnosis is that none of us have access to the correct investigations which start with Bacterial Overgrowth, IBS and changes to the Microbiome including Organic Acids which act as neurotoxins and can cause multiple neurological symptoms.

 

[stefanosstef]

@Avenger you are quite right.I have experienced it myself and it is so annoying and unscientific I sometimes felt I was in the Twilight Zone.As far as I know every "Syndrome" seen as an expression of Somatization Disorder have later been proven to be a real disease.I've seen an article arguing that the existence of Somatization Disorder is not proven at all, with the criteria of the scientific method.I've looked it up again and couldn't find it but to be fair there are so many cases of Somatization Disorder that I can't imagine it not exist.

It's a very different thing though to have one or 2 symptoms that is your personal manifestation of this disorder (even "blindness" has been documented as such a manifestation) than having a specific set of symptoms, often affecting different systems, that precisely match the symptoms of many many other people.

These Psychiatrists make me so angry; for many years IBS has been seen by Psychiatrists as caused by psychological stress and I recently read of a Psychiatrist trying to equate early psychological stress down to causing IBS due to stressors on the Gut Brain Axis and hence later Psychological issues due to IBS. Firstly I cannot see how they could have made measurements of these Gut Stressors with evidence based changes to the Gut Microbiome when so little is still known about the Microbiome and many other Scientists are relating changes in Gut Microbiota as the basis of changes such as Seratonin and other neurotransmitters and there may be many forms if IBS.

As far as this goes, it doesn't sound wrong, depending on what they meant exactly.
It's even in one of the citations you posted.If gut flora and brain can affect each other in both directions, it's not crazy if an early psychological trauma caused a microbiome change that set a perpetual cycle that can be very hard to resolve by itself.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

These Psychiatrists make me so angry; for many years IBS has been seen by Psychiatrists as caused by psychological stress and I recently read of a Psychiatrist trying to equate early psychological stress down to causing IBS due to stressors on the Gut Brain Axis and hence later Psychological issues due to IBS.

This IBS stuff is complicated. And we all vary. I have personally experienced both hard core gut problems physiological, and hard core gut problems psychological/emotional/stress. Both exist.

 

[Avenger]

@Avenger I really appreciate your research and your citations, I checked them all.I will definitely try Saccharomyces Boulardii, it looks really promising.I have many expenses on experiments and refills this period and I may delay it a bit (rhodiola, nad+, nadh, ITPP, some peptides, ibudilast).
Please share your results with us

How do you think this one will pair with potato starch?I am thinking it should help it be more effective by feeding it.
I am suspecting D-lactic acid buildup, because I've recently realized I get poisoned after high carb meals.
A couple of weeks ago it happened for the 4th time and that was the time I connected the dots.Initially I suspected it was the dressing on the pasta that made me sick (diarrhea the next day that lasted at least 1 day).
After changing dressing or even making my own I realized it was the pasta that caused the problem, because those 4 times I ate quite more quantity than usual, about 1.5 portion of pasta for lunch and 1.5 portion for dinner.Pasta doesn't satiate me so I ate more.

I'm not a doctor and I just got my feet wet on acidocis but I don't understand why D-lactic acid (or other metabolites that somehow relate to it) poisoning can't have variating levels of symptoms.What you say makes sense.

D-Lactic Urine Test Strips that can be purchased Online;

Hi heatshimmr, JWarrior77 and Cnew2this,
I found this online Urine test for D-Lactic acid online. I will call them tomorrow. If you were able to measure Urine D-Lactate during bad exacerbations at home, it may answer a few questions for us all: It would be ideal if those ME/CFS with D-Lactic symptoms who would be able to demonstrate their cause to Doctors, with 'no if's or buts' and would break the chains imposed on ME/CFS as being purely psychological, but a manifestation of Gut Microbiome that we have caused due to environmental issues (everything from Proton Pump Inhibitors to NSAID's, Antibiotics, Fluoride & Chlorine in Water etc). It could break the back of those arguments from those who are opposed to ME/CFS and open the way to get help from medical insurance and proper investment from our Governments and health providers.

1. QUANTIQUIK™ D-LACTIC ACID QUICK TEST STRIPS

QuantiQuik™ D-Lactic Acid Quick Test Strips

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QuantiQuik™ D-Lactic Acid Quick Test Strips
Direct determination of D-Lactate concentrations in food and beverage samples as well as biological (e.g. urine, blood, etc.) samples.
View Datasheet
• Fast and sensitive. Use of 20 or 100 µL sample. Semi-quantitative measurement between 0-180 mg/L (undiluted) D-Lactate.
• Convenient. No extra equipment required.
• Sample treatment and assay can be performed in under 15 minutes.
LACTATE is generated by lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) under hypoxic or anaerobic conditions. D-lactate is produced in only minor quantities in animals and measuring for D-lactate in animal samples is a means to determine the presence of bacterial infection. Furthermore, since D-lactate is a specific indicator of bacteria fermentation, its measurement can be used to determine the freshness of milk, meat and fruit juices. Elevated levels of D-lactate in wine is an indication of lactic acid bacteria contamination. BioAssay Systems' QuantiQuik™ D-Lactate Test Strips are based on D-Lactate dehydrogenase catalyzed oxidation of D-lactate in which the formed NADH reduces a chromogenic reagent. The intensity of product color, is directly proportional to D-lactate concentration in the sample.

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[Avenger]

@Avenger you are quite right.I have experienced it myself and it is so annoying and unscientific I sometimes felt I was in the Twilight Zone.As far as I know every "Syndrome" seen as an expression of Somatization Disorder have later been proven to be a real disease.I've seen an article arguing that the existence of Somatization Disorder is not proven at all, with the criteria of the scientific method.I've looked it up again and couldn't find it but to be fair there are so many cases of Somatization Disorder that I can't imagine it not exist.

It's a very different thing though to have one or 2 symptoms that is your personal manifestation of this disorder (even "blindness" has been documented as such a manifestation) than having a specific set of symptoms, often affecting different systems, that precisely match the symptoms of many many other people.



As far as this goes, it doesn't sound wrong, depending on what they meant exactly.
It's even in one of the citations you posted.If gut flora and brain can affect each other in both directions, it's not crazy if an early psychological trauma caused a microbiome change that set a perpetual cycle that can be very hard to resolve by itself.

Hi stefanosstef,
Somatization disorder is anything that Doctors do not understand in a patient; Based upon the assumption that they, as Doctors, must have absolute understanding of all medical knowledge; therefore if they do not understand a patients symptoms, then the patient is to blame; Simples..........QED; Somatization Disorder.

To make such a diagnosis as Somatization shows a personality flaw, because logic should tell them that just because they do not understand, there may be some other cause in the universe outside their understanding or training, but there also seems to be a more sinister aspect, because many Doctors 'tow the party line' and just go along with ME/CFS=Somatization Disorder. There should be a precautionary principle instead of fraudulent absolutism.

Patients stating Gastrointestinal symptoms with ME/CFS symptoms will get a Somatization diagnosis. Gastrointestinal symptoms are taken as a key point in Somatization disorder! Yet Doctors and Psychiatrists know very little about Bacterial Overgrowth.

I had a Doctor for 14 years who helped me through, get investigations, medicate symptoms as best as he could and he was honest that the did not understand my illness, but at the same time believed that I was unwell. I trusted and respected him more so, because of his honesty and because he did not jump to conclusions as many other Doctors had or dismiss my symptoms. He even sent letters to A&E asking for Blood Gas investigations that were never performed in 20 years, because A&E had put this all down to Somatization which was placed in my records. It was due to that Doctor that I was given antibiotics and finally realized that my symptoms must be Bacterial, because they would stop every time that I used Metronidazole (which is also given for D-Lactic acidosis).

Professor Malcolm Hooper has repeatedly stated that Somatization Disorder does not exist and that there is no biological test or proof; it is merely a poorly thought out human construct that has been used for a purpose, to sweep us under the carpet. There are now many Psychiatrists who have challenged it, including that it often causes further damage when a real illness is mislabeled as psychological.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/...2/mislabeling-medical-illness-mental-disorder
Allen J Frances M.D.
DSM5 in Distress

Mislabeling Medical Illness As Mental Disorder
The eleventh DSM 5 mistake needs an eleventh hour correction.
Posted Dec 08, 2012


https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj...onses&panels_ajax_tab_trigger=rapid-responses

The new somatic symptom disorder in DSM-5 risks mislabeling many people as mentally ill
BMJ 2013; 346 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.f1580 (Published 19 March 2013)Cite this as: BMJ 2013;346:f1580

Psychiatrists seem to get honors and knighthoods for coming up with or upholding such drivel, because it saves Governments money and the Pace Trials show clear intent to defraud millions of sick people.