Beef liver and methylation

outdamnspot

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I know methylation has been covered so much here, but I just don't have the mental capacity to go through it all, so wanted to ask a couple of questions, if that's okay.

I started using Greg's B12 oil 2.5 weeks ago (the methyl/adenosyl mix); at first, the effects were really strong (euphoria, increased mental energy, better sleep, mixed effects on physical energy .. sometimes triggering crashes etc.). Then things started to taper off and I'd mostly just notice a little relaxation and what I think is electrolyte imbalances immediately after applying it (worsened POTS, anxiety, weakness in my limbs.). I do take quite a lot of potassium though, since I'm on a Keto diet.

Anyway, I began consuming beef liver once a week, but switched to eating it everyday last week, because it was the only carbohydrate source I could tolerate. I noticed that the combination of the B12 and beef liver seemed to have a very powerful immune effect: my gut became a complete mess and I was spending nearly all day 'clearing out' the strangest stuff (normally I have almost no gut motility). The B12 alone didn't do that and the liver alone didn't do that, so I thought maybe the folate and vitamins in the liver were helping move methylation along? It felt different to my regular food reactions because if I eat something that irritates my gut, I just get diarrhea, but this felt closer to the die-off I've experienced on herbal abx; I would feel amazing relief after each 'elimination'.

However, the liver definitely causes a histamine reaction in me too and suddenly yesterday I became intolerant to it so had to stop. I also noticed that my hands are covered in a rash and that I have a lot of painful cracks that look like small papercuts. I was wondering:

a) could the cuts on the hands and dry skin be paradoxical folate deficiency from the folate in the liver? I don't have anything like angular chelitis etc. so was wondering if I was doing more harm or good by eating the liver.

b) if I wanted to continue on the B12, is it necessary to introduce methylfolate too? I have the double MTHFR mutation. And if I do, can I take a small dose before bed or does it tend to be stimulating? I do prefer to take new supplements before bed in case they trigger a crash.

c) if I introduced methylfolate, would I have to cut out folate-containing foods like liver, avocados etc.?

Any insights would be appreciate. Thanks!
 

outdamnspot

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Well I realized the 'cuts' are actually old cuts (from putting my hand through glass accidentally) that have reappeared likely due to the dry weather. But regardless, my hands are usually red and dry so wasn't sure if that related; I have no other skin symptoms.
 

Hope4

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Outdamnspot, I don't know about the methylation part. Washing the liver well with water before cooking washes off some of the amines. Low heat helps, too, and not cooking too long, so that fewer amines form from cooking.

I use pure lanolin on irritated skin, and find it helps. I've used tallow before, too. I find the animal fats stay put, and go into the skin better than the vegetable and seed oils.
 

outdamnspot

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Outdamnspot, I don't know about the methylation part. Washing the liver well with water before cooking washes off some of the amines. Low heat helps, too, and not cooking too long, so that fewer amines form from cooking.

I use pure lanolin on irritated skin, and find it helps. I've used tallow before, too. I find the animal fats stay put, and go into the skin better than the vegetable and seed oils.
Is liver higher in amines than other animal cuts? Also how do you distinguish amines reactions from histamine etc?
 

Hope4

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Is liver higher in amines than other animal cuts? Also how do you distinguish amines reactions from histamine etc?
Yes, beef liver is higher in amines than beef muscle meat. Here is a chart that shows low to high levels in some commonly eaten foods. I don't have a good list with actual amounts, such as mg or mcg of a particular amine, such as histamine or tryptamine, per 100mg of food.

Histamine is a type of amine.

Here is a an excerpt from a page on amines, at Sue Dengate's website on "Food Intolerance". Her website has reports from people about their own reactions to foods, or their children's reactions. There are some general comments, but many reactions are individual. I have not been able to distinguish my own reactions to various amines. But I can distinguish salicylate reactions from amine reactions. (Add in glutamates, oxalates, nightshades, etc., and it is quite a puzzle.)

I get flare-ups of hives from foods high in amines, for example. Headaches from salicylates.

Biogenic amines are formed by the breakdown of proteins in foods. They can affect mental functioning, blood pressure, body temperature, and other bodily processes. Some hormones, such as adrenaline (epinephrine) are compounds containing an amine. There are many different amines, including:
  • tyramine (e.g. in cheese)
  • histamine (e.g. in wine)
  • phenylethylamine (e.g. in chocolate)
  • agmatine, putrescine, cadaverine, spermidine (e.g. in decomposing fish)
  • tryptamine
  • adrenaline (ephinephrine)
  • serotonin
  • dopamine.
Biogenic amines are normally quickly broken down in the body with the help of enzymes such as MAO (monoamine oxidase-A) which render them harmless. Missing, sluggish or blocked enzymes can lead to a build up of amines in the body.
 

outdamnspot

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@Hope4 That's helpful, thank you. Have you noticed a difference in how you tolerate liver when you wash it first and cook at a low heat? All the cooking videos I watched said to sear it quickly, about 30 seconds a side, to ensure nutrients aren't destroyed so that's how I've been doing it.
 

Hope4

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Hi, ODS. :) Yes, sometimes. I find the effects of stress and toxins is cumulative. If the toxic load is high, and the stress is high, then a small amount of amines will cause the hives to flare, and/or I will feel wound up and slightly agitated, or more irritable.

I am not eating liver, these days, as I like mine very well done. When I have the hives far away in remission again, I'll eat some. I like to cook mine on low heat, but a long time, -- so I have to be careful.

There are some other considerations with liver, for me, too. I like calf liver, but it is high in copper, so I eat chicken liver or beef liver.

I wish you success with cooking and avoiding histamines.