Be careful with low carb / keto diets

[Artemisia]

Also I see more people talking about "pro-metabolic" and "generative" eating, limiting PUFA, getting more sunlight, and thankfully more people are realizing carbs are crucial. I rarely see these "health influencers" talking about this give credit to Ray Peat though, which is annoying.

 

[youness]

Same thing I Detroit to 0 baseline aftert stopping topping my main source of carbs
The weird thing is that I need bread other things like potato is not enough

 

[Dysfunkion]

Same thing I Detroit to 0 baseline aftert stopping topping my main source of carbs
The weird thing is that I need bread other things like potato is not enough

I can do without gluten but I also need some kind of carb source which is why I also fall into the over carbing trap anyways because I need to eat so much more in food volume to get the same energy out of food as healthy people. This is something I had an issue with my entire life. I fell into many eating disorders because balancing how wonky the way my body dealt with physical and cognitive energy regarding what I get from food was always mission impossible. I wanted to eat more healthy and be more moderate/balanced but when I did I essentially just starved and the weight would keep dropping. I did growing up have a lot of chronic gut based infections too. I was always getting stomach sick from everything when other people would be just fine even if they ate the same food. I'm not sure what I have going on but I was clearly born with some serious undiagnosed multi-system condition that was never properly addressed outside of "you have gilberts" with a shoulder shrug after that.

 

[Artemisia]

The weird thing is that I need bread other things like potato is not enough

Bread seems to have an extra satiating effect on me too, and I majorly struggle with blood sugar and satiation. I wish gluten didn't cause digestive problems for me because a sandwich now and then would really make my life easier.

 

[Dysfunkion]

Bread seems to have an extra satiating effect on me too, and I majorly struggle with blood sugar and satiation. I wish gluten didn't cause digestive problems for me because a sandwich now and then would really make my life easier.

I won't lie it does, in fact I'm tempted to get me some today on this rainy gross saturday at home where the comfort junk cravings are in full swing at times. That grocery store dough makes the best fresh stress eating loaves if you ferment it just a little bit and add some herbs! lol

Maybe the bread satiation thing has more to do with a factor of the combination of taste, weight, and texture combined with a carb load that does it. What I like about fresh bread is that slightly sweet, hot and chewy texture, with a little bite and depth from the fermentation, and how it leaves you feeling satisfied for a long while after. It like creates this little space in between the noise of daily life in the way that indulging in much else can't. This probably has something to do with the neuro-immune response dynamics of people reactive to bread with the sensory factors that are also comforting/rewarding. My response to plain pasta is not the same as my response to bread. I have no cravings for pasta ever unless of course it's salty and savory home made mac and cheese goodness.

When I'm being more stress eating craving carby I can also never just have some plain rice for example, it just won't do the thing but keep the baseline hunger off. The carb cravings are never alone, it's almost always with oily/savory meat and salt cravings of some kind. It's like the carb craving is the base of something but my body is actually craving tons of amino acids and proteins with minerals which will genuinely satisfy them for a short time and then it starts up again.

Just a bunch of salt on it's own? Does nothing to satisfy. Just a bunch of plain carbs on their own? Doesn't satisfy either. Just meat? Actually does in some way but the satisfaction drops off much quicker without the salty component and it must be fatty to do the thing (and if I add in just enough carbs it works out perfectly). I did also test this to see if it was a taste thing with those packs of salty savory dried seaweed which is not going to even fill up a rabbits belly with how light they are. Doesn't satisfy a thing but boy was it tasty! I have also tried plain sugar water to see what would happen, only made me feel like garbage so that certainly isn't it. Same with honey water.

I have also thought about since eating makes me feel worse no matter what which coexists besides this need and I just react less to some things that what is going on is if based on that "Me/CFS - A New Hope" document which has some rapid metabolite depletion and energy waste product theory is that it's rapidly repleting something that is constantly being rapidly depleted and the rapid use causes rapid fluctuations in energetic waste which doesn't feel good and has a paradox effect on my actual energy and sensory experience. Could also explain why if I go for an extended fast I feel a bit better but this quickly devolves into a near fainting rush to the next 800 pounds of meat and salt to keep me alive for the next 10 minutes or so that appears to just disappear into the ME/CFS resource depletion void before my body can actually use most of it like normal fuel.

 

[Artemisia]

Yeah when I'm really hungry, I have to have different types of food together. Starch, fruit, protein and fat.

All things being equal with added nutrients to the meal, rice and pasta are not very satiating to me. Rice is only slightly more satiating than drinking a glass of water. Which is to say for me, not at all.

But I'm amazed that water is actually satiating to some people?? I heard some relatively healthy man say recently that he was on a low calorie weight loss diet of only 800 calories. But that he was not hungry because he drank a ton of water. that would do absolutely nothing for my hunger!

The way people talk about food and getting full makes it clear they have a totally different experience from me. It's not at all about emotional eating or cravings for me. It's about taming this relentless hunger.

 

[Wayne]

It's not at all about emotional eating or cravings for me. It's about taming this relentless hunger.

Hi @Artemisia -- Your comment triggered a memory, although it's a somewhat hazy one. I talked with a man a couple years ago or so who had lost some weight, which I congratulated him. His reply was one I've not forgotten: "The weight loss was secondary to me. The most important thing was I was able to put my "constant hunger" behind me. (I don't recall how he did it).

The look on his face was very telling; he seemed to have lived a lifetime of constant anguish. So I "may" have a small sense of what you experience. It sounds pretty challenging--to say the least. Have you tried an AI query to see if it could find examples of people who've been able to solve a constant hunger problem? I hope you can find a solution for yourself!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Maybe the bread satiation thing has more to do with a factor of the combination of taste, weight, and texture combined with a carb load that does it. What I like about fresh bread is that slightly sweet, hot and chewy texture, with a little bite and depth from the fermentation, and how it leaves you feeling satisfied for a long while after. It like creates this little space in between the noise of daily life in the way that indulging in much else can't. This probably has something to do with the neuro-immune response dynamics of people reactive to bread with the sensory factors that are also comforting/rewarding. My response to plain pasta is not the same as my response to bread. I have no cravings for pasta ever unless of course it's salty and savory home made mac and cheese goodness.

Totally agree with your assessment here. Only macaroni and cheese would "trump" a piece of toast.

A nice chewy sour dough- super nummy.

IF washed up upon a desert island, I'd want bread.

Chewing releases serotonin.

Of course I avoid bread mostly, so I can eat a piece of toast, later on, possibly. I never want pasta.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Me/CFS - A New Hope" document which has some rapid metabolite depletion and energy waste product theory is that it's rapidly repleting something that is constantly being rapidly depleted and the rapid use causes rapid fluctuations in energetic waste which doesn't feel good and has a paradox effect on my actual energy and sensory experience. Could also explain why if I go for an extended fast I feel a bit better but this quickly devolves into a near fainting rush to the next 800 pounds of meat and salt to keep me alive for the next 10 minutes or so that appears to just disappear into the ME/CFS resource depletion void before my body can actually use most of it like normal fuel.

something is up with this, I agree.

If I go out on a field trip, rapid onset starvation sets in. At home I can run on my breakfast meal (it's around noon) and I can often go 6-7 hours craving nothing. But if I leave the house? Please sent over the 800 pounds of meat and salt so I can last ten more minutes.

 

[Artemisia]

Hi @Artemisia -- Your comment triggered a memory, although it's a somewhat hazy one. I talked with a man a couple years ago or so who had lost some weight, which I congratulated him. His reply was one I've not forgotten: "The weight loss was secondary to me. The most important thing was I was able to put my "constant hunger" behind me. (I don't recall how he did it).

The look on his face was very telling; he seemed to have lived a lifetime of constant anguish. So I "may" have a small sense of what you experience. It sounds pretty challenging--to say the least. Have you tried an AI query to see if it could find examples of people who've been able to solve a constant hunger problem? I hope you can find a solution for yourself!

thanks for understanding Wayne. It really is an awful thing to have, especially with ME when energy is low but I've got to spend extra energy dealing with The Hunger. So many times I've been crashing and just want to rest or sleep but have to get up to fix and eat a meal--the last thing I want to do!

I will try AI!

 

[Artemisia]

Before I got so hungry in 2010, I had 2 years of almost never being hungry. That wasn't fun either, but if given a choice I would definitely pick loss of appetite to The Hunger, hands down.

 

[Johnmac]

What I wish someone had told me many years ago before I experimented with restricting carbohydrates (essentially starving myself of glucose):

Use extreme caution with any low carb diets. Our cells run on glucose, and if you're not eating glucose, your body has to convert fat and protein to glucose which is inefficient. The last thing we need is more roadblocks in energy production as ME/CFS sufferers.

The brain has the biggest glucose demand and must have it at all times. If there's not enough glucose stored in the liver as glycogen, this is a crisis situation. The body will spike cortisol to break down muscle tissue and convert to glucose to keep your brain functioning. This is what I learned from my anatomy and physiology professor years ago, confirmed by reading Ray Peat, and ultimately confirmed by my own experiences.

Keto / low carb diets often hurt thyroid function, among other problems related to constantly high stress hormones. It's especially hard for women due to our differences in physiology.

A very low carb diet led to a severe decline in my health. If you're having problems on keto, consider adding some carbohydrate you tolerate.

Of course everyone should eat how they want. But since there's so little criticism of low carb diets, I thought I could give mine in the hope it's helpful to someone.

Low carb (keto then for 15 months carnivore) hasn't harmed my health.

Eyesight & skin have improved. Tongue is pinker, & facial pallor has gone. Mental processing is better (e.g. I can type faster & more accurately). Teeth are whiter (I'm guessing this is oxalate leaving my system). Itchy eyes have mostly gone. But energy has lifted only a little bit.

It's hardly the life-changing thing that many report - but neither has it harmed me.

(Bloods are all normal.)

 

[Artemisia]

Men often do better on it than women
and it's possible the benefits aren't from reducing carbs but from reducing food additives

 

[pamojja]

For me, it was the only logical step, since I suffered a walking-disability from a stenosis from PAD, started to monitor lab results - and thereby saw every organ system out of step.

Particularly, I was on my sure way from pre-diabetes to T2D (even diagnosed because of a once off HbA1c). So armored with a blood glucose meter, I even had to cut my apple in the morning to half. Such low-carb, however, reverted my prediabetes.

But more surprisingly, by changing from low-fat vegetarian for 30 years, increasing fat to 70% of calorie intake. Along with daily eggs, weekly fish and monthly (organically grown) beef. My lipid normalized very fast without medications.



One framework to explain such differences in biochemical individuality would be different autonomous-nervous system metabolic types, used for example by the late pancreatic cancer doc Nickolas Gonzales (the following notes taken from an interview):

Dominant sympathetic types: Typ ‘A’ personalities, disciplined; mostly solid cancers; do good on much plant based foods: fruits, vegies, seeds, grains, nuts, plant based oils: hemp, flax; Vitamin B1, B2, B3, 8:1 ratio magnesium to calcium, high vitamin C & D; but not on much meat protein, no b12, no choline, no B5, no zinc, no selenium, no fish oil. Yes to beta Carotene, chromium, folic acid, riboflavin, thiamin,& niacin

Parasympathetic: types are rather creative with unconventional ‘formal’ education; mostly blood-based cancers; do good on lots of meat and a ketogenic diet, saturated fats, fats from fish oils, Calcium 10-15 ratio to magnesium (high magnesium causes depression), Vitamin B12, B5, Choline; not as good on grains or seed. Need zinc & selenium, not good with other large Vitamin B doses.

Mixed or balanced types: suffer rather from allergies and fatigue.

Obviously, by my conditions too, I am a mixed type, and really deprived myself for too long of at least some animal food. Making myself really ill, after 30 years of eating low-fat vegetarian. Out of ethical reasons.

 

[southwestforests]

Hmm, looks like elements of those 2 would cover me,

Parasympathetic: types are rather creative with unconventional ‘formal’ education; ... not as good on grains or seed.
Mixed or balanced types: suffer rather from allergies and fatigue.