BBC Radio 4: Children with ME

Mrs Sowester

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It would take a 12 part series to cover all the truths and history we want people to know. A 40 minute program couldn't possibly right all the wrongs, but it made a damn good start by focussing on children and families in the UK.

File on 4 is a very well respected program and it's repeated at 5pm on Sunday afternoon so it'll reach a wide audience. The people I know who heard Esther Crawley and asked me about the nonsense she spouted about 2% of children having ME will listen to this program and be better informed.

And thank you @TiredSam for saying exactly what I'm thinking in your post #119 but struggling to put into words.
 

Barry53

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Sometimes it can be more effective to underplay your hand. If Matthew Hill had made the argument that the PACE Trial is a complete pile of crap, he would have got embroilled in all kinds of arguments with all kinds of people and had to give a right of reply to the PACE authors, amongst others.

If he instead he makes the argument that patients should be allowed to accept or decline any treatment without coercion, he can sidestep the issue of whether the PACE recommendations are an effective treatment or not and doesn't have to get into an argument with the authors or their supporters because it doesn't matter how good or bad the PACE Trial recommendations are - even if they are wonderful, patients have an absolute right to decline. This allows him to focus on a more simple message (patients being allowed to accept or decline any treatment) and he only has to ask local authorities or schools for comment. At least the PACE trial was described as "disputed", and not just by a minority of vexatious patients. Any stronger than that and he'd have had to invite the authors for comment.

Same with whether to use David Tuller, Nigel Speight, Jane Colby or Sonya Chowdhury. The BPS crew can easily claim that David Tuller has been a libellous vexatious adversary, Nigel Speight's views are well known and he was suspended by the GMC, etc - but Sonja Chowdury? Criticism coming from her is much harder for them to disagree with and she is the person they are least likely to be able to start a public spat with. Wouldn't we just love it if they did.

Same with whether to interview families of kids who have been locked up - in those cases a diagnosis will have been made, and whoever made it will have a right of reply. Instead we had normal families who were being chased and harrassed, which is much easier for a general listener to identify with.

Of course the above is pure speculation on my part, but I'm sure Matthew Hill will have given a lot of thought to how to best get his message across, and the tactical factors he considered when choosing the most effective way may not be ones that are immediately obvious to us.

In my opinion we have to allow him a free hand to make whatever editoral decisions he sees fit. At the end of the day he got us 40 minutes on national radio that came across as balanced and fair (much too balanced from our perspective, but it was addressed to the general listener) and publicised an extremely concerning issue that many listeners will have been completely unaware of.
Basically, if you try and fight a battle on all fronts at once you will lose.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
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The other point I would make is that, when making a case, you have to think about how opponents are likely to respond. Matthew Hill has made a program that is extremely difficult for the BPS crew to take issue with. I wouldn't be surprised if that was his main consideration when deciding what to put in or leave out.
 

Hilary

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The programme was 40 mins long with a single message to get clearly across - parents of children with ME are being falsely accused of misrepresenting their kids' illness and threatened with sanctions. Probably the single most poignant message that the innocently uninformed public will suddenly stop and listen to. If the public are going to be re-educated it will need a whole series of tightly focused programmes, each one with a single digestible message. If you chuck everything into the first 'lesson' then you've shot yourself in the foot before you start - educating the public is the goal, not confusing them. This programme was not for our consumption (who already understand so much) but for the general public (who understand very little but misunderstand so much), and this programme was well pitched to begin a process of enlightenment. Important we remember that.
Absolutely agree with this. I don't think it's about being 'grateful' for progress in any way. I would love to rant and shout and throw things (and at a few individuals in particular), I get so angry about all the disbelief, derision and abuse, and about all the wasted lives.
But in my view it's about being realistic and finding ways to re-educate the public which will actually work to counter the largely unrelenting diet of BPS junk they have been fed.
I hope sooner or later there will be a programme focusing entirely on all the excellent research currently underway.
 

Molly98

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576
I think Matthew Hill understood the situation very well. After all he is a veteran of ME related coverage. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that his inclinations are likely in the right direction, but I sense he was being limited in what he was allowed to say. That being so I felt not only did he sadly pull his punches, but if anything was to be found languishing in the corner with a towel over his head (in my opinion at least). That old Edmund Burke chestnut, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Hill might be a good man but we know the calibre of the people with whom he spoke and so we know he will have been given chapter and verse on what really is happening with these children. There is no doubt about that. So we have two points in time: i) where he acquires good evidence of truly awful crimes against innocent children and their families and ii) where he fails to disseminate that he knows this stuff. It's up to us to judge. If he has the cahoonas he'd 'go rogue' on social media and break this open. It would make his name, but also sadly probably lose him his job.

2nd long rant , sorry folks!

There are many points you make here @lilpink that I have been thinking myself.

I fail to see how any journalist could have interviewed all the people Hill has interviewed, including parents and children and not see the way ME patients have been treated as anything other than an outrage, and scandalous and a gross injustice ( unless they are from the Mail or Express of course) and feel personally enraged at the injustice and want to expose it in its entirety. In my opinion that did not happen, a long way from it. Hill seemed quite impotent to me.

My guess ( though I may be entirely wrong) is that more senior editors and others have the final say and much of it was watered down or neutralised.

I do understand and can relate to a lot of the positives @Barry53 @trishrhymes @MEMum and others are saying. I do see where you are all coming from you make good points and it is a step in the right direction moving from a gross bias towards the BPS lot to, well a more neutral position.

However, we as a community have been facing this gross injustice for decades now. The injustice is perpetuated by a gross imbalance of power where our voices and those of people who support us have been deliberately drowned out and ignored. The BBC have unfortunately been part of that up until now.

When such an imbalance of power occur, in my opinion, one of the jobs of serious journalists is to expose it and to give the disempowered a voice. This to me does also involve exposing not only the extent of the injustice and harm , but exposing those who are doing the injustice and harm and exposing the myths, lies and power dynamics which allow this to contiue. This was not done.

I know it has been mentioned by @charles shepherd and @Barry53 that this was for the general public rather than ME community. I would be interested in the impact it had on the general public. I have not noticed any comments on social media, other than from ME folks. I do wonder if it has had any impact on the general public, I feel that it is not enough, but then the general public has lots else to take their attention at present.

I try to put myself in the position of someone from the general public who does not know anything about ME. I try and put myself in the position of a school nurse or Head Teacher or social worker listening to the programme and for me, it would not leave me any clearer on the true nature of ME and whether it is psychological or not.

I feel many people who deal with Child protection day in day out as part of their jobs will still be left very unclear by this programme. Yes, they heard how upsetting it was for parents and their children to go through child protection investigations, but many will know and understand this anyway. All parents deny allegations of harm or neglect so what makes these parents different, how do we really know that they are not making it up? ( This is me trying to think as others I have worked with may think by the way, not my own opinion)

If the programme had given interviews from Ron Davis, Nigel Speight and time to outline the direct scientific evdience behind the disease, the UN classification, the IOM report on ME then as someone who knew nothing of ME or was quite ignorant of ME, I would have come away re-educated and understanding the seriousness of ME and that it is a genuine physical condition.

But as the programme was, I would not have come to that conclusion, I would have been, yes these poor families, but we still don't know if ME is real or not, all in their heads and psychological because no one has given us proof otherwise and the journalist seemed to be sitting on the fence as if the jury is still out on this one.

What came across to me is that ME is an illness little is known about and for which there is no scientific evidence, and it may well be real but we just don't know. And if GET works for some, like the lad then it can't be all bad and perhaps the others were not trying hard enough.

We have so much evidence now showing the biological abnormalities in ME which is proof of its physical nature and also proof why GET is so harmful to many, this could have been nailed down once and for all in this programme, but instead, the debate around its psychological opposes physical nature is allowed to continue. In my mind, this needed to be challenged and challenged very strongly in this programme and wasn't.

People need to be shown or told the science not just an opinion. I say this from my previous experience in my work with children and young people in schools and social care.

In working with many kids who had been abused and neglected and who suffered grief, PTSD, nothing, nothing I could say had more impact with professionals working with these kids, ie teacher, health workers, social workers etc than showing them the neuro- science behind what was happening for these kids, why they were affected and behaving the way they were. It was always a light bulb moment for people and their attitude, understanding and sympathy for those children could do an abrupt u-turn over night.

That in my opinion is what the listeners need to know, in order to understand and in order to form an informed opinion and shut down this rediculous BPS model of our disease for good and I felt it was sadly missing.

Like @lilpink mentioned about good men doing nothing, this has been my thoughts since last night. People and organisations who sit by or sit on the fence not wanting to get involved or take sides is contributing and in my opinion 'enabling 'abuse, medical neglect and harm to continue. This attitude does not redress the huge power disparity but allows it to continue.

I sincerely hope that the BBC do a more full and hard hitting follow up and take it upon themselves to properly educate the public about our disease and the injustices we have suffered because part of their remit is public education.
 

jimells

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I know we're supposed to be impressed by the notion of 'balance' but to me the 'balance' happens when the journalist investigates every aspect of a topic and then presents the truth of that topic.

"Fair and Balanced" is just a slogan, not an operating principle, as ME patients well know from the constant media attacks against us. It seems to be a fairly recent invention, and is a distraction from the fact that by definition establishment media exists to support and give succor to the establishment, not common people.

This is a critical point that many advocates of various issues fail to understand. They think the mass media exists to communicate stories and truthfully inform the public. It doesn't, so forget about trying to control the messages the mass media disseminates. Other strategies must be used, like funding David Tuller. Freedom of the press belongs to those who own one (or are able to attract lots of eyeballs). Right now, that ain't us.

A hundred years ago, when print media was the dominant and most effective form of mass communication, "Fair and Balanced" didn't exist. Political parties, labor unions, and other interest groups frequently had their own newspapers - they would've laughed themselves silly at the very idea that they should make space in their papers for "the other side". Certainly when I was involved with the IWW's newspaper "Industrial Worker" we didn't worry about giving equal time to the capitalist's point of view!

When William Lloyd Garrison was running his anti-slavery paper "The Liberator" I dare say he didn't run any op-eds from slave holders:
I am aware that many object to the severity of my language; but is there not cause for severity?

I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. On this subject, I do not wish to think, or speak, or write, with moderation. No! No!

Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen;—but urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest—I will not equivocate—I will not excuse—I will not retreat a single inch—and I will be heard.

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal, and to hasten the resurrection of the dead.

The job of a journalist isn't to be "Fair and Balanced". Rather, their job is to Comfort the Afflicted and Afflict the Comfortable. I haven't listened to the program yet, but is sounds like maybe they did a reasonable job on the first part and maybe not so much on the second.

David Tuller understands his job as a journalist and is pursuing it with vigor, which is why he is so highly respected and admired among us, and why he had no trouble raising $60,000 in just a few weeks.

So to sum up:
1. This is no time for moderation or reducing criticism of the BPS Brigade and their media lackeys
2. Continue to hold BBC's feet to the fire
3. Fund David Tuller
 

lilpink

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When such an imbalance of power occur, in my opinion, one of the jobs of serious journalists is to expose it and to give the disempowered a voice. This to me does also involve exposing not only the extent of the injustice and harm , but exposing those who are doing the injustice and harm and exposing the myths, lies and power dynamics which allow this to contiue. This was not done.

Completely agree. (And with the rest of your analysis in that post).
 

Mrs Sowester

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1,055
I have had close contact with the BBC but have been asked not to give specifics to avoid them being harassed.

Do we actually harass them then? I assume they mean lots of emails. Do PwME deluge the BBC and other media bodies with more correspondence than other groups of grumpy people?

This is a genuine question, I'm wondering whether we have a reputation for harassment or if we actually do harass with emails and complaints.
 

charles shepherd

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2,239
The aim of this BBC radio 4 'File on 4' programme was really quite simple:

Around 11,000,000 people listen to BBC Radio 4 each week and the programme was there to inform a percentage of those listeners that:

1 There is a serious neurological illness called ME/CFS that probably affects around 25,000 children and adolescents - where it is the commonest cause of long-term sickness absence from school

2 There are many uncertainties and disagreements relating to the cause and management of ME/CFS - with some doctors still believing it is 'all in the mind'

3 NICE recommends two forms of behaviour therapy - CBT and GET - for everyone with mild or moderate ME/CFS. This is despite that fact that extensive patient evidence obtained by the MEA consistently indicates that the majority of people do not find CBT to be effective at helping the actual ilnness and over 50% are made worse by inappropriate graded exercise programmes

4 The PACE trial, which is the largest clinical trial of these two therapies, claimed they were safe and effective. But when data on recovery status (that was obtained using an FoI) was re-analysed, the PACE trial results on recovery were found to have been exaggerated.

5 Consequently, many patients and parents of children with ME/CFS are reluctant or refuse to follow a graded exercise programme - this should be a perfectly reasonable thing to do in relation to the principles of medical informed consent

6 However, issues relating to non-attendance at school and disagreements/disengagement with health profesionnals can easily lead to social workers getting involved and totally inapproriate steps being taken in relation to child care proceedings - with parents describing actual cases where this had happened

7 Much of this misunderstanding and lack of knowledge about cause, effect and management of ME/CFS is the result of a lack of education about the illness being given to health profesionals, social workers and teachers and this has to change

There was a lot of ground to cover in 40 minutes and a limit to the number of interviews that could be incorporated

Overall, I think that the programme succeeded in achieving what it aimed to do

Which is why I think the ME Community should express their thanks to Matthew Hill and the producer

If they feel that this programme has been appreciated by people with ME/CFS you might actually find that they want to return to investigating another aspect of ME/CFS

There aren't many health reporters who are willing to spend several weeks researching and preparing on a story like this when there is all this spoon fed health news coming out of the SMC

But if you start complaining and 'continue to hold BBC's feet to the fire' (as one post on PR has just advocated) you may well find that there isn't anyone left at the BBC who wants to do another serious investigation into ME/CFS that also takes note of patient evidence and concerns…..

Dr Charles Shepherd
Hon Medical Adviser, MEA
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
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Do we actually harass them then? I assume they mean lots of emails. Do PwME deluge the BBC and other media bodies with more correspondence than other groups of grumpy people?

This is a genuine question, I'm wondering whether we have a reputation for harassment or if we actually do harass with emails and complaints.

I have contact with a wide range of health journalists

Rightly or wrongly, a small but significant proportion still believe that the ME/CFS patient group is one of the most difficult that they have to deal with and that (as a result of previous bad publicity) there is 'harassment' of researchers that people do not agree with

Hence the reluctance of some health journalists to present a balanced picture when they report on ME/CFS - especially some of the research studies
 

lilpink

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But if you start complaining and 'continue to hold BBC's feet to the fire' (as one post on PR has just advocated) you may well find that there isn't anyone left at the BBC who wants to do another serious investigation into ME/CFS that also takes note of patient evidence and concerns…..

That sounds awfully like the Wessely School insinuating that harassment of them leads to fewer people wanting to study the disease, which is both troubling and wrong. As we know the more noise pwme have made over the last few years the more decent researchers have come to the fold. Is nobody ever to be held to account?
 

jimells

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If they feel that this programme has been appreciated by people with ME/CFS you might actually find that they want to return to investigating another aspect of ME/CFS

And here I am thinking that they are investigating institutional abuse of sick children because it is a grave injustice, not because of the number of "likes" they might get.
 
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