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Bad reaction to MB12

Messages
5
Hi,

I've been suffering from Labrynthitis for the last few weeks and in my desperation I took 500mcg of Jarrow MB12 last Saturday (14 July) and 750mcg on Sunday (15 July). On the following Monday my Labrynthitis seemed to dissapear.

But for the next 4 days I felt sick to my stomach with massive anxiety, insomnia and a little dizziness, since then I still have the anxiety, insomnia and a little dizziness today, and it has been around 9 days now since I first took the MB12.

I've been eating bananas and raisins regularly to keep my potassium up.

I've recently been taking TMG, and this seems to be helping a little.

Has anyone experienced similar, and is there anything I can try to get back to normal?!

I had my B12 tested last Wednesday and it came back as 333.

Thanks in advance.
 

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
Yes, I did experience something similar when I started off with mb12. I felt wired, had sleep issues and dizziness was also there. Potassium really helped the dizziness. Although I still experience these three things, but in a lesser intensity than when I first started off with mb12. In my opinion, these are mb12 startup effects which you are facing.

Are you taking methylfolate?

From what I have experienced and read, these startup effects are different for everybody, as everyone has different problems. They take a while to go away, but the best way is to slowly increase the dose of mb12 so that these effects can be managed.

B12 definitely messes with sleep, I posted a thread B12 and Insomnia a while back when my sleep was totally gone. I tried out melatonin and other things for my sleep. My other major symptom is anxiety and one has to learn methods to deal with it. One can take a benzo for it but then again, one can get addicted. A good sleep really helps with anxiety.

I do still feel wired, but it is lesser than what I used to 2 months back when I started off with mb12. Things take time.
 
Messages
5
Hi Arx,

Thanks for letting me know of your experience. I've currently stopped MB12 altogether as I'm so afraid of making things worse.

The anxiety and insomnia seems to be slowly getting better, day by day. But I imagine I could be looking at months rather than weeks until I get better.

Does anyone know if these problems will subside altogether? Has anyone had them resolve faster?

A quick run down of what has happened so far.

14 July - 500mcg MB12
15 July - 750mcg MB12
16 July - Felt better in the morning with too much energy, but started to feel very sick and anxious in the afternoon. Took B-Complex in the evening- includes Folic Acid and B12
17 July - Felt sick, anxiety
18 July - Felt sick, anxiety
19 July - Felt sick, anxiety, insomnia
20 July - Sickness eased, terrible anxiety, terrible insomnia
21 July - Terrible anxiety, terrible insomnia
22 July - Took 3g TMG in the morning, felt better within 30 mins, but symptoms returns 2-3 hours later so took additional TMG, which seemed to help. Slept better that night.
23 July - Anxiety, improving insomnia, continuing with 6-9g TMG a day to help symptoms
24 July - Anxiety, improving insomnia, continuing with 6-9g TMG a day to help symptoms
25 July - Anxiety, improving insomnia, continuing with 6-9g TMG a day to help symptoms
26 July - Anxiety, improving insomnia, continuing with 6-9g TMG a day to help symptoms
27 July - Anxiety, improving insomnia, continuing with 3-4g TMG a day to help symptoms
28 July - Anxiety, improving insomnia, continuing with 3-4g TMG a day to help symptoms. Started Mag Malate 1g a day and drinking Camomile tea. Occasional use of Lorazepam 0.5mg to help sleep.

So it appears the TMG is helping. Does anyone know why it's helping and can anyone suggest supplements to support it further? Can I increase the dose of TMG?

Thanks,
Zamora
 

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
Hi Arx,

Thanks for letting me know of your experience. I've currently stopped MB12 altogether as I'm so afraid of making things worse.

The anxiety and insomnia seems to be slowly getting better, day by day. But I imagine I could be looking at months rather than weeks until I get better.

Does anyone know if these problems will subside altogether? Has anyone had them resolve faster?

You might want to reduce the dosage and slowly increase in order to tolerate the symptoms. The initial worsening of symptoms indicates there is a problem and from what I have gathered, it is actually a positive sign. From what I have gathered, it does take months to years. It is quite varying as different people with different symptoms are trying out the b12 protocol. Something similar to my case(neuropsychiatric symptoms), as I could find on the web,took them minimum 6 months to an year to experience a good degree of improvement. I've read people who have recovered earlier, but this is a very deep process, and does take time. I was told by Freddd that if done correctly, I could be looking at substantial to complete recovery. But only if done correctly. It obviously takes time to understand the protocol, experimenting with one's body and analyzing what works for themselves. I may or may not get substantially better, but patience and hope helps. You should read the Active B12 protocol , B-12 the hidden story threads so that you can have a better idea of things if you don't have already.


So it appears the TMG is helping. Does anyone know why it's helping and can anyone suggest supplements to support it further? Can I increase the dose of TMG?

Use of l-methylfolate(Metafolin) is suggested instead of folic acid and slow titrations of mb12 are suggested. If I were in your place, I would take 500 mcg everyday for a week, then increase to 750 mcg next week and so on. People usually take 800 mcg of Metafolin everyday before taking the mb12. Also,other co-factors are also recommended. (Refer to the b12 protocol threads in this forum)

I have no experience with TMG yet, but I might try it out soon. It does help, as I have read. It is a part of the methylation cycle as you can see here:
( Betaine is TMG)

http://i48.tinypic.com/2aqlfq.png

You might want to read more about methylation. Here is a lecture which I found very useful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRHif2aVPvw

You can get an idea about more supplements(TMG, SAM-e, L-Carnitine) which might be useful by understanding the protocol and methylation.

I don't know anything about Labrynthitis so well, can't say anything.

Hope the above is of help to you.

Good luck.
 
Messages
5
Update: It's been nearly 5 weeks now since I stopped the MB12.

Anxiety and insomnia is still present - although its severity varies. Sometimes it gets better and then I have a set back.

New symptoms that have arose in the last couple of weeks - headache - Sometimes it feels like my heads been hit by a train, and other times it's OK.

In the last week I've experienced a tingling in the fingers and toes along with a feeling of tremor that makes it difficult for me to coordinate my hands.

I'm convinced I'm deficient in B12, but it looks as if I've caused further damage to myself attempting to treat it as all of these symptoms are new to me.

I've ordered a B Complex without Folic or B12: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Biocare-B-P...1_1?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1345027804&sr=1-1

Magnesium supplement: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctors-Bes...G8L8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345027772&sr=8-1

Quatrefolic: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctors-Best-Active-Featuring-Quatrefolic/dp/B005CD33GI/ref=pd_sim_sbs_d_3

I live in the UK - Do you know of any tests that I could have or specialists that I could see to find out what would be the best way forward for me? I feel like I need B12 now, but I can't have another reaction like I have done already!

Thanks,
Zamora
 
Messages
24
Location
Seattle
Hi Zamora,

I don't really have answers for you, but I wanted to echo that this sounds like my own experience the last month. I've been ramping on the Simplified Methylation Protocol. Something in B complexes gives me late afternoon anxiety, and the Neurological Health Formula tablets have been no different. A full dose is six tablets; I've settled in at two. I've noticed some occasional nausea as well, although I don't know if it's from B vitamins or something else, as it's a new symptom.

Like you, I've noticed a prolonged effect from B vitamins. Maybe it's because they're stored (contrary to what's always repeated, water-soluble vitamins do get stored to a small extent); or maybe the body started to adapt to their presence and continues those changes in their absence. I remember reading somewhere Freddd saying that B12 startup effects were worse, the more times you started up.

And yet we know we need them. My serum B12 was very close to yours. That's not far from a clinical deficiency. So what to do? -- push forward, completely miserable, for how long? Or stop taking them and allow the condition get worse? I don't think we have a choice but to hope the body will eventually adapt without negative symptoms. But I'm choosing to slowly increment, as you were advised above, keeping the symptoms within tolerable limits. I'd make sure you're taking the other B vitamins as well, and potassium foods, and look out for other deficiencies that might be getting exposed. Time will tell if and how quickly these symptoms dissipate.

I don't think you said you were taking folate? That means you're feeding one requirement (B12) of the MTR reaction and not the other. I would definitely add in 5-MTHF. Maybe this is even what's causing your symptoms. I say 5-MTHF, because you probably don't know if you have an MTHFR mutation.

I think Rich generally recommends hydroxy B12 instead of methyl, because most people don't know if they have a mutation related to methyl donors. Maybe this could be causing your symptoms as well.

TMG feeds the BHMT bypass, potentially slowing the reaction you're trying to speed up with B12 by using up its substrate, homocysteine. The net effect of B12 + TMG might be to help keep the SAM cycle going, but keep the folate cycle more subdued. If TMG reduces your symptoms, then it's possible they're a product of a sped-up folate cycle -- but I'm not sure this means you should stop doing it.

Regarding your tingling -- as suggested above, maybe your B12 started up some machinery that doesn't want to stop now, sharpening your deficiency and producing what sound like classic B12 deficiency symptoms. I would definitely suggest adding some hydroxy B12 back in, but maybe at reduced levels.

Best of luck as you try to find your way through this maze.
 

Victronix

Senior Member
Messages
418
Location
California
When I first took B-12 my start-up symptoms were so intense I was a total wreck and each small change takes, usually for me, about 2 weeks to adapt to, even though I've been taking it for years now. There was no getting around those start-up symptoms but one thing I know now is how important it is to be taking everything else too that you may have a deficiency in. I've also recently discovered that coconut water seems to be really good in terms of normalizing whatever is off (I've had some kind of bizarre illness lately) -- even though I take Bone-up and a specially designed Cal/Mag and numerous other things, the coconut water makes a real difference for me, not sure why.
 

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
When I first took B-12 my start-up symptoms were so intense I was a total wreck and each small change takes, usually for me, about 2 weeks to adapt to, even though I've been taking it for years now. There was no getting around those start-up symptoms but one thing I know now is how important it is to be taking everything else too that you may have a deficiency in. I've also recently discovered that coconut water seems to be really good in terms of normalizing whatever is off (I've had some kind of bizarre illness lately) -- even though I take Bone-up and a specially designed Cal/Mag and numerous other things, the coconut water makes a real difference for me, not sure why.

Same here. With my very first dose of mb12, I totally crashed. I was a wreck before it also,but the mb12 physically hit me and I had no energy. What I have understood is that the hyper response to something indicates its extreme deficiency in the body. That's why it hits hard. Then I read about potassium and how hypokalemia is induced when mb12 actually starts working. I ate bananas and lots of coconut water(I still do!). Maybe the real difference is because of the electrolytes in coconut water,particularly potassium?
 
Messages
24
Location
Seattle
Yes, something about methylation startup inspiring more cell growth, and new cells need potassium. A serving of Bone-Up has only 99mg of potassium; 3.5oz of coconut water has 250mg, and it seems to me it might get absorbed more easily. OJ is a great source also, and I've been aiming for 2-4 cups/day.

In any case, it helps to hear stories like yours of people who saw the symptoms going away with time (and potassium)... When you haven't been through it before and have had these symptoms for a month, you start to wonder whether you're really doing the right thing. The stories, and my low vitamin B test levels, have kept me going.
 

alice

Senior Member
Messages
109
Location
No. CA, USA
Could someone please tell me where or what is the best source of coconut water. Does it come in a metal or glass jar and is it available in most grocery stores or do you order it from a online place. Is a certain brand name better. I would rather drink the coconut water than take a bunch of potassium pills.
 

Marlène

Senior Member
Messages
443
Location
Edegem, Belgium
I have the impression impulsing with low doses when you overreact to B12 is helping me to benefit most from the methylation protocol.

When I stop with B12 for let's say up to a few week, I get a boost for a few days. Then the effect fades away and I can start with the B12 protocol again till I become sick/depressed/hyper/... from it. The reactions change throughout time and differ with dose.
 

L'engle

moogle
Messages
3,168
Location
Canada
You really need to supplement potassium on methyl b12. I don't know if that is the source of your problem but taking mb12 without potassium is problematic. Also a good magnesium supplement.
 

L'engle

moogle
Messages
3,168
Location
Canada
Yeah,potassium is necessary. How much magnesium do you take, L'engle?
A fair bit. At least two tablets of Alta magnesium chloride, plus magnesium oil transdermal sometimes. Whenever I start getting a headache I take magnesium in some form. Would have been nice to about know ten years ago :p