B2 Riboflavin and me

[Rand56]

I can't remember, but I quickly found that after awhile, even lower doses of B2 (Riboflavin) were effective for me in preventing my migraines. Here is one of the original studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9484373

Interesting. I would presume that you built your B-2 stores back up and then later were able to sustain relief on smaller maintenance doses.

 

[merylg]

Interesting. I would presume that you built your B-2 stores back up and then later were able to sustain relief on smaller maintenance doses.

My interpretation too! Although I did not understand it at the time.

 

[Rand56]

hi merylg

Sorry to stay on this subject but I'm still unclear on something. When you said "(which involved ceasing any B multi, any folate, any methylfolate (Metafolin), any folinic acid." did you cease those because your Neuro doc wanted you too while you were prescribed the 400mg of Riboflavin, or did you cease those for personal reasons because some of those made you ill? If it was your Neoro doc that wanted you to cease those, the point I'm trying to get to is, maybe he/she knows all those deplete B-2 stores further and if that is the case..I'm more curious to know if he/she knows "methylfolate" reduces B-2 stores.

 

[merylg]

hi merylg

Sorry to stay on this subject but I'm still unclear on something. When you said "(which involved ceasing any B multi, any folate, any methylfolate (Metafolin), any folinic acid." did you cease those because your Neuro doc wanted you too while you were prescribed the 400mg of Riboflavin, or did you cease those for personal reasons because some of those made you ill? If it was your Neoro doc that wanted you to cease those, the point I'm trying to get to is, maybe he/she knows all those deplete B-2 stores further and if that is the case..I'm more curious to know if he/she knows "methylfolate" reduces B-2 stores.

Hi Rand56,

The treatment for prevention of my migraines (by my Neurologist) with high dose B2 (Riboflavin), was quite a few years ago. I was not taking any other supplements or medications at the time.

Jump forward at least ten years...I have recently been trying Methylation Protocols over the last year (NOT prescribed by any Neurologist). I have stopped because of bad reactions to Methyl B12 and Methylfolate (Metafolin).

I am now trying B2 (Riboflavin) again, in much lower doses to treat what appears to be symptoms of B2 deficiency (This time NOT prescribed by any Neurologist). I just wanted to make it clear that I am NOT on a methylation protocol at the same time. I am hoping that by correcting my B2 deficiency state, I won't need a methylation protocol. Shall see.

PS After trying Methylation protocols for over 9 mths I ended up with sky-high Serum B12, Serum Folate & Red Cell Folate.

 

[Rand56]

merylg

Ok thanks...I understand more now

 

[garcia]

Interesting. I would presume that you built your B-2 stores back up and then later were able to sustain relief on smaller maintenance doses.

I can't remember, but I quickly found that after awhile, even lower doses of B2 (Riboflavin) were effective for me in preventing my migraines. Here is one of the original studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9484373

It turns out that:

"The placebo in this study was 25 mg riboflavin, which, according to the authors, was chosen to provide color to the urine, for the purpose of blinding; the authors also believed this amount of riboflavin would not have clinical activity. An analysis was performed after 48 patients completed three months of the trial. The primary outcome was a 50-percent reduction in migraines during the third month, compared to the initial 30-day period. A 42-percent reduction in migraine frequency was seen in the active group and a 44-percent reduction in the placebo group. The authors concluded that 25 mg riboflavin alone and 400 mg riboflavin ... resulted in comparable effects on migraine headache frequency and severity."

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/13/4/334.pdf

So 25mg riboflavin is just as effective for migraine as 400mg, probably due to the limited absorption capacity mentioned earlier.

 

[justy]

hi merylg

Sorry to stay on this subject but I'm still unclear on something. When you said "(which involved ceasing any B multi, any folate, any methylfolate (Metafolin), any folinic acid." did you cease those because your Neuro doc wanted you too while you were prescribed the 400mg of Riboflavin, or did you cease those for personal reasons because some of those made you ill? If it was your Neoro doc that wanted you to cease those, the point I'm trying to get to is, maybe he/she knows all those deplete B-2 stores further and if that is the case..I'm more curious to know if he/she knows "methylfolate" reduces B-2 stores.

Hi Rand, i'm curious to find out more of this idea going around that taking methylfolate depletes/reduces b2 stores. In fact i believe from what i have read that they have a synergistic relationship - without adequate b2 folic acid, b6 and b12 cant be utilised properly by the body. Do you have any sources to back up the claim?
Thanks, Justy

 

[justy]

Hello Everyone,

Please know that I am working on this as quickly as I can. One reason I wanted Brenda to remove her specific supplement protocol (which she kindly did) is because it was designed for her; I saw her chart. B2 can interact with many medications (which I will list) so I do not want everyone to suddenly take what she takes and possibly have issues. I know the National Research Council states that no tolerable upper limit has been set due to its lack of side effects. However this recommendation was made based on a healthy individual taking high doses of riboflavin, not a nutritional imbalanced person with high levels of lead and possibly iron. This is why its important that you understand what I believe the imbalance is, what has caused the imbalance and how it affects your energy system.

Possible Interactions with: Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)
Interactions:
If you are currently being treated with any of the following medications, you should not use vitamin B2 supplements without first talking to your health care provider.
Anticholinergic Drugs -- Used to treat a variety of conditions, including gastrointestinal spasms, asthma, depression, and motion sickness, these drugs may inhibit the body's ability to absorb riboflavin.
Tetracycline -- Riboflavin interferes with the absorption and effectiveness of tetracycline, an antibiotic. (All vitamin B complex supplements act in this way.) You should take riboflavin at a different time during the day from when you take tetracycline.
Tricyclic Antidepressants -- Tricyclic antidepressants may reduce levels of riboflavin in the body. In addition to raising levels of the vitamin in the body, taking riboflavin may also improve the effects of these antidepressants. They include:
Imipramine (Tofranil)
Desimpramine (Norpramin)
Amitriptyline (Elavil)
Nortriptyline (Pamelor)
Antipsychotic Medications -- Antipsychotic medications called phenothiazines (such as chlorpromazine or Thorazine) may lower riboflavin levels.
Doxorubicin -- Riboflavin may deactivate doxorubicin, a medication used for the treatment of certain cancers. In addition, doxorubicin may deplete levels of riboflavin in the body. Your doctor will let you know whether you need to take a riboflavin supplement or not.
Methotrexate -- Methotrexate, a medication used to treat cancer and autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, can inhibit the body from using riboflavin.
Phenytoin -- Phenytoin (Dilantin), a medication used to control epileptic seizures, may affect riboflavin levels in the body.
Probenecid -- This medication used for gout may decrease the absorption of riboflavin from the digestive tract and increase the excretion in the urine.
Thiazide Diuretics -- Diuretics (water pills) that belong to a class known as thiazides, such as hydrochlorothiazide, may cause you to excrete more riboflavin in your urine.
Drug Interactions:
Antimalarial MedicationsAntipsychotic MedicationsBirth Control MedicationsDoxorubicinPhenytoin-containing MedicationsSelegilineTetracyclineTricyclic Antidepressants

This may not be a complete list, thus you should check with your healthcare provider and/or pharmacist regarding any medications you currently are taking to see if there are any known side effect with riboflavin supplementation.

Hi Dogperson, thanks for the list of drug interactions - although i think to be fair some are more cautions because the drug listed actually depeltes B2 rather than having a dangerous reaction with it. But its always good to be on the safe side.
I am not sure what you were realting to when you said you are working on this as quickly as you can. This thread is seperate to both the hair mineral analysis testing thread and brendas thread about her specific abnormalities. I started this thread to investigate furhter the links between B2 and the disorder M.E. especially relating to the electron transport chain and oxidative phophorylation, which has been extensively studied in M.E/CFS and found to be working incorrectly in most cases. I had noticed from the original link i posted at post#1 that B2 is very important for all these biochemical processes and was wondering why it isnt flagged as a seperate test on the mito profile test or by well known M.E/CFS doctors.
All the best, Justy.

 

[Rand56]

Hi Rand, i'm curious to find out more of this idea going around that taking methylfolate depletes/reduces b2 stores. In fact i believe from what i have read that they have a synergistic relationship - without adequate b2 folic acid, b6 and b12 cant be utilised properly by the body. Do you have any sources to back up the claim?
Thanks, Justy

hi justy

No I do not have any sources to back up that claim...that's why I'm trying to find out. I know Riboflavin is needed for proper utilization of other B's and I do remember Dog Person saying previously that even a B-complex can deplete B-2 stores. My first "clue" of me "maybe" being deficient in B-2 is that I always feel worse taking a B-complex pill. Maybe those other B's in there are already tanking my low level of B-2 even further. I, as well as others on here, are taking extra doses of methylfolate and B-12, and some higher doses of P5P, so there are many on here that want to know how these effect B-2 stores. I am probably one of the few on here that is taking a very high dose of methylfolate...15mg's per day. I even asked the question if SAM-e can lower B-2 stores. I'm also taking that and I am sure some others on here are as well.

 

[merylg]

It turns out that:

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/13/4/334.pdf

So 25mg riboflavin is just as effective for migraine as 400mg, probably due to the limited absorption capacity mentioned earlier.

Thanks garcia, yeah it was all a new discovery at the time. Interesting.

 

[Rand56]

hi justy

No I do not have any sources to back up that claim...that's why I'm trying to find out. I know Riboflavin is needed for proper utilization of other B's and I do remember Dog Person saying previously that even a B-complex can deplete B-2 stores. My first "clue" of me "maybe" being deficient in B-2 is that I always feel worse taking a B-complex pill. Maybe those other B's in there are already tanking my low level of B-2 even further. I, as well as others on here, are taking extra doses of methylfolate and B-12, and some higher doses of P5P, so there are many on here that want to know how these effect B-2 stores. I am probably one of the few on here that is taking a very high dose of methylfolate...15mg's per day. I even asked the question if SAM-e can lower B-2 stores. I'm also taking that and I am sure some others on here are as well.

Sorry, I think my question really is.....if someone is already taking extra B's in their bioactive coenzymated form...will all of these or just some of these...or none of these...will deplete B-2 stores further?

 

[justy]

Rand - i dont see any evidence that taking B vitamins or any other supplements depletes B2 stores, beyond a casual remark made on another thread. The person on the other thread implied that because you need B2 to make other b's available this would deplete B2. That isnt necessarily logical, nor can i find any evidence to back that claim up - maybe someone could as Rich if he knows anyhting about this situation - i personally cant find anything to verify it and think it is misinformation - but i guess i could be wrong.

 

[Rand56]

Rand - i dont see any evidence that taking B vitamins or any other supplements depletes B2 stores, beyond a casual remark made on another thread. The person on the other thread implied that because you need B2 to make other b's available this would deplete B2. That isnt necessarily logical, nor can i find any evidence to back that claim up - maybe someone could as Rich if he knows anyhting about this situation - i personally cant find anything to verify it and think it is misinformation - but i guess i could be wrong.

Well I'm assuming since Dog Person has knowledge of these things...I am not taking this as a "casual remark" LOL. I guess some are skeptical about what she is saying but as for me...I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt. Here is what she said on the other Riboflavin thread....

"Thought I'd add too your thread quickly. From my working with B2, I've seen that the other B vitamins rely on B2 to be activated or converted or used correctly. So by taking the B complex and juicing which concentrates nutrientes (but not much B2 in veggies compared to the other B's) you kept slowly depleting your storage locations of B2.

The other bad thing about taking a complex is that you can absorb the several thousands of % of the other B's they put in them. But you can only absorb a fraction of the B2 so the complex itself is unbalanced."

 

[adreno]

Yes, I don't take it as a casual remark either. It questions the foundation of both the SMP and ABP.

Without any evidence, I am skeptical of this, though. Lots of doctors are using high dose B protocols. Could they all be wrong?

And there is research showing positive effects of folate, B6 and B12, without any riboflavin.

 

[justy]

Sorry, by casual i meant unsubstantiated and unverified. I am questioning it for the exact reason that you are Adreno.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Justy and Adreno--

I agree that more evidence is needed.

I am really glad to see that Rich joined the discussion on the other B2 thread. His input and observations will be very helpful.

 

[Rand56]

The way I am looking at this is...if Rich is keeping an open mind and giving her the benefit of the doubt...I believe most others should as well. Rich is likely the smartest person in here <don't mean to exclude others..but you know what I mean> with his research and knowledge of biochemistry. If he noticed any "red flags" in what Dog Person has been saying he would have confronted the situation. Yes, I noticed he asked her some questions, but I have yet to see any downright "you're full of it" comments. More questions no doubt will be brought up after Dog Person posts what she has been working on.... but...discussion is good. It's ALL GOOD as far as I'm concerned.

 

[justy]

Yes, discussion is good- thats what we are here for. I sincerely hope she answers his questions as she has ignored mine and some earlier questions put to her by Rich on another thread. BTW this is not Dogperson bashing AT ALL - as i have siad all along searching for clarity for all on here. I have tried doing my own research into this question of depletion and cant find any referneces to it anywhere. On the other hand it could be right - either way im still going to take some B2 along side my B12 injections as i feel i may a deficency based on papers cited above on this thread.
All the best to all, Justy.

 

[Rand56]

Yes, discussion is good- thats what we are here for. I sincerely hope she answers his questions as she has ignored mine and some earlier questions put to her by Rich on another thread. BTW this is not Dogperson bashing AT ALL - as i have siad all along searching for clarity for all on here. I have tried doing my own research into this question of depletion and cant find any referneces to it anywhere. On the other hand it could be right - either way im still going to take some B2 along side my B12 injections as i feel i may a deficency based on papers cited above on this thread.
All the best to all, Justy.

Maybe she isn't intentionally ignoring questions. She has her work, her family life, her working on her paper, her time interpreting hair analysis results and whatever "etc" she has going on. She has answered some questions but maybe her time is just so taxed right now she can't get to all of them fast enough. Bringing this up now is making me think that maybe all questions to her should be held back for now. Would give her a break in trying to get to them and maybe a lot of the questions will be answered in the paper she is going to post.

 

[brenda]

Thanks Dreambirdie

What you say is true, but in this instance DP is working hard to get her theory presented for us to look at and then, I think is the time for questions. If we have not given her a chance to show us the full story, then how can we ask sensible questions without wasting her time. A lot of the questions will be answered when we see her paper, which I am very very grateful for in advance as I know she is right

Brenda