“Autism symptoms reduced nearly 50 percent two years after fecal transplant”

Messages
78
Likes
65
Have you looked into the Thomas Borody bacteriotherapy method used in his ME/CFS study, where instead of using FMT, I believe he cultured important anaerobic gut bacteria including Bacteroidetes, Clostridia and Escherichia coli, and placed those in the gut as a sort of super-power probiotic. That might explain his claimed success rate.
I have, and I'm pretty skeptical about that method. Especially due to the lack of details given and not publishing it in a major journal. I think we're a long way away from being able to identify and culture the most important microbes for FMT. One example is that one study showed a "sterile fecal filtrate" containing no bacteria was effective for C. Diff. It contained phages though, and probably points to phages being more important than bacteria.

See also: https://old.reddit.com/r/HumanMicrobiome/wiki/index#wiki_testing.3A


If these species were available as probiotics, they would be far more effective than the current probiotics available. But because they can occasionally cause an invasive bacterial infection, nobody wants to sell them as probiotics.
I don't know how accurate either of those claims are. I haven't seen any info on that last one. The first statement is supported by Borody's study, but there are the issues with it I mentioned above.

I would like to see more studies testing those bacteria, but the fact that he didn't continue with it suggests it wasn't really effective.

I wanted to try to source some of these bacteria for probiotic use (which would have a risk), but could not find any supplier. I believe they are hard to culture anyway, as they are anaerobic and are killed by oxygen.
Yeah I don't think they exist. There are some companies working on that type of synthetic FMT product but they haven't had good success thus far.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
12,830
Likes
23,610
One example is that one study showed a "sterile fecal filtrate" containing no bacteria was effective for C. Diff. It contained phages though, and probably points to phages being more important than bacteria.
Yes, ideally I'd like to send a sample of some of the more potentially pathogenic bacterial species in my gut to the Phage Therapy Center in Tbilisi, so that they can identify the precise phage that kills them. But the Phage Therapy Center are very expensive, and no guarantee at all that it would have any benefit.

I have two bacterial species in my gut that Genova Diagnostics class as potentially pathogenic (meaning they can become problematic when their populations increase): one is Proteus mirabilis, and the other Staphylococcus aureus. I would be interested to see if a phage targeted at these would help. Because there are lots of strains of each species of bacteria, you get the best results if you send your actual bacterial sample to Tbilisi, and they will find the best phage that targets not only that species, but that particular strain.



I don't know how accurate either of those claims are. I haven't seen any info on that last one. The first statement is supported by Borody's study, but there are the issues with it I mentioned above.
Bacteroides is being considered as a possible next generation probiotic, but it can also cause clinical infections. See this comment for example:
I would definitely NOT advise attempting to grow Bacteroides fragilis and its relatives outside of the balanced population of intestinal flora. B. fragilis causes the most clinical infections among the group which includes Bacteroides distasonis, Bacteroides ovatus, Bacteroides thetaiotaomicron, and Bacteroides vulgatus.

These bacteria are resistant to penicillins, mostly through the production of beta-lactamase. They are part of the normal GI flora and are also associated with intra-abdominal infections such as perirectal abscesses and decubitus ulcers. The enterotoxigenic strains of B fragilis (ETBF) are also a potential cause of diarrhea.
 
Messages
78
Likes
65
Yeah, using a genus to discuss these types of things is too inaccurate. I know about B. Fragilis, but I don't make the connection when only the genus is mentioned. Low brain function I guess.

IMO spreading the microbioma.org flyer locally to try and find an FMT donor is probably the most cost-effective thing we can do. I'm going to start doing it in my area after I try 1-2 more things.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,403
Likes
2,009
Location
Brisbane, Australia
It's interesting Dr Borody is quiet on ME/CFS because in Melbourne there's a doctor who says this:

"But I’ve made a decision. If you’ve got a consenting adult who knows what they’re in for and have done their research, I’ll FMT anything because in the end it’s the patient who decides what they want... If you’ve got chronic fatigue and you want me to FMT you, I’ll do it as long as you understand."

I live in Melbourne and I've actually been to the clinic he works in to see a dietitian (that was pointless!) and I do sometimes wonder about getting FMT there. The cost is maybe $4k.
Dr Paul Froomes has an FMT clinc in Melbourne too
http://www.melbournefmt.com.au/
 
Last edited:

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
12,830
Likes
23,610
I know about B. Fragilis, but I don't make the connection when only the genus is mentioned.
Have you not looked into the specific species of bacteria that you may have in your gut? Some gut inhabitants are potentially pathogenic. For example, the following gut bacteria can be potentially pathogenic if their population becomes large:

Aeromonas, Bacillus cereus, Campylobacter jejuni, Citrobacter, Clostridium difficile, pathogenic strains of Escherichia coli, Klebsiella, Morganella morganii, Proteus, Pseudomonas, Salmonella, Shigella, Staphylococcus aureus, Vibrio and Yersinia.

If you do have such species, you can then look into what antibiotics (or supplements) might specifically target the pathogenic bacteria that you have.
 
Messages
11
Likes
14
hard to believe that changing thta would alter how the brain works? i always guessed people were born with autism
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
12,830
Likes
23,610
I've done ubiome tests, they're pretty useless.

Is there a test you've done that you recommend?
I don't know too much about it, but the test I did about 10 years ago was the Genova Diagnostics Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis 2.0 With Parasitology. That was one I'd often seen recommended.

You can see a sample test report here.

It's available in the US and Europe. It's not cheap, costing £300. There is also the version 1.0 of that test available too.


I've included the microbiology part of my own test report below. As you can see, I have two potentially pathogenic bacteria in my gut: Proteus mirabilis and Staphylococcus aureus. You know they are potential pathogens when there is a yellow section at the end of the population level scale.

In my case, levels of Staphylococcus aureus are relatively low at 2+, but levels of Proteus mirabilis are 4+ which puts that bacteria into the pathogenic levels of population (at least according to Genova Diagnostics).

So I then started to look into the best antibiotics for Proteus mirabilis, and started trying a few. I can't say that the results of this test have actually guided me to any health improvements, but I was curious to know which were the major potentially pathogenic bacterial species in my gut.

The test will also tell you if you have gut parasites such as Giardia lamblia, which has been linked to ME/CFS.


1554937984084.png
 
Last edited:

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
12,830
Likes
23,610
hard to believe that changing thta would alter how the brain works? i always guessed people were born with autism
There are studies which have demonstrated that inflammation in the gut will induce increased inflammation in the brain by a remote signaling system (which mainly involves vagus nerve signaling).

I suspect autism does not start in the gut, but starts in the brain and involves chronic brain inflammation. But that brain inflammation can be made worse if the gut is also inflamed due to the presence of dysbiosis of pathogenic bacteria in the bowels. So if you treat the gut, that may reduce brain inflammation and thus autism symptoms.
 
Messages
1,384
Likes
6,910
I agree with @MaximilianKohler on the importance of phages. Science is laser focused on acteria because that's what it can culture and see.

If adding species worked then probiotics would be more effective.

But something is keeping these ecosystems out of balance. I suspect it is the phages which keep the populations of bacteria, archaea in check, which may be why FMT is effective, and also may be why some people are superdonors.

But in this way of thinking what makes a superdonor might vary from person to person. If you have the wrong bacteria you might need the right kind of phage to keep it in check, etc.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
12,830
Likes
23,610
Hip what do you think is causing the increased incidence of autism? (i know million dollar question )
There is research linking pesticide exposure during pregnancy and as an infant to the later development of autism in the child.
 

perrier

Senior Member
Messages
964
Likes
1,948
If this autism study can be replicated in a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial that the authors are calling for, I am sure it will kick up a lot of interest.

However, nothing seems to be happening in the ME/CFS world. Although the Borody study was publish in 2012, it was actually conducted 20 years earlier (because in the study they say they followed patients for up to 20 years).

So the Borody study is really a 27 year old study, and if nothing has advanced in those intervening 27 years, it does not look good for ME/CFS.
It isn't only the Borody study which is 27 years old; all this stuff that some current cfs doctors are saying is also pretty old stuff. Dr Teitelbaum in his book, From fatigued to fantastic, brought up all the symptoms that the researchers are now finding, and I am not impressed with Dr Systrom and his mestinon study; Dr Teitelbaum and Dr Holtorf used mestinon decades ago. Mestinon is not well tolerated by many patients who tried it ages ago. And on it goes: there is some superb scientific stuff that has come out, but the basics are still old news and nothing is out there to help the patients, as yet. Very discouraging.
 
Messages
12
Likes
14
There is research linking pesticide exposure during pregnancy and as an infant to the later development of autism in the child.

I read something about high glucose/diabetes during pregnancy also. what do you think about that theory? that would make more sense since people eating high cars and being overweight is more common in recent years than pesticides?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
12,830
Likes
23,610
I read something about high glucose/diabetes during pregnancy also. what do you think about that theory?
Could well be a factor as well.

Mothers who get cytomegalovirus or rubella infection during pregnancy is another risk factor for autism; but due to MMR vaccination, rubella infection incidence will likely be decreased.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,665
Likes
1,425
His bacteriotherapy involved giving ME/CFS patients an infusion of cultured bacteria (not the same as an infusion of fecal material which is FMT).
does "cultured" bacteria mean cultured in a a lab? Is it safer than FMT? it sounds like it...

what is "enteric" bacteria?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
12,830
Likes
23,610
does "cultured" bacteria mean cultured in a a lab? Is it safer than FMT? it sounds like it...
Yes, lab cultured, but not necessarily safer than FMT, as some of the cultured bacteria used are potent colonizers of the gut, but can occasionally cause clinical infections. The bacteria in regular probiotics sold in shops are not potent enough to cause clinical infections.



what's the diff between a phage and bacteria?
A bacteriophage (phage for short) is a virus that infects bacteria (like humans and animals, bacteria can also catch viral infections).
 
Messages
12
Likes
14
Could well be a factor as well.

Mothers who get cytomegalovirus or rubella infection during pregnancy is another risk factor for autism; but due to MMR vaccination, rubella infection incidence will likely be decreased.
Interesting. I strongly suspect im on the autism spectrum (aspbergers) but i'm pretty sure my mom never had those infections in her life. but her mother had diabetes and i was born a heavy baby which i heard is a risk from mother having too high glucose. she was skinny all of her life though so she never got diabetes.