ATP working well for me.

[Keshav]

I got tired of seeing CFS specialists that only ever offered me more overpriced supplements. One way or the other, I managed to get myself into a reasonable facsimile of good health with good and bad days. Last March I got mild Covid and been fighting that off and feeling horrendous fatigue, even as most symptoms had faded. I'd been searching forever for injectable ATP not combined with B 12. I used to buy the stuff they sold for vets from a place in Australia (I no longer remember the place) and it helped. But I had quad bypass surgery 2.5 years ago and my cardio guy said to lay off B12 as he claimed it speeded up production of arterial plaque. I was really desperate during the search and despite poor or undectable improvements using oral/tablet form ATP, I ordered sublingual ATP-20 tablets from Douglas Laboratories. Taking it three times a day, I found to my disbelief that I was much improved in less than three days. Not great, but better and feeling encouraged. In the interim,

I found I could get Heel brand injectable ATP offered by several places in Europe It came quickly via DHL from Germany. I injected half an ml in my hip with a bit of Magnesium Sulfate which is supposed to make it more effective. Next morning, I woke up after a bad night sleep, expecting to feel like crap all day, but after being away 15 minutes I noticed my mind was much sharper, my mood was really good and my energy was very good. It's not a "speedy" energy, but rather a nice calm energy.

Since then I have added glutathione and MSM and Transfer Factor to the mix and I've been more "normal" than I've felt in years. I'll be adding Nexavir to the mix and see if it makes any difference. I have to say, as good as it is to not be drooping around the house like a zombie all the time, my mental clarity is bigger benefit. Also, I'm hypoglycemic - yet now if I go crazy and have a small bowl of ice cream, I don't pass out in a coma for 20 minutes. Also, far fewer of my chronic headaches, which I've assumed after so many different (and clueless doctors over the course of 30 years of headaches) is due to herpes virus.

I've decided to see Dr. Susan Levine at Columbia to get a better idea of the underlying cause of my CFS. I went to get all the prescribed blood tests, but half of them were nixed by my health insurance as being "experimental". and I just don't feel desperate enough to lay out $3,500.00 for the tests not covered, so not really sure how useful my time with Dr. Levine will be, but if I learn something new and useful, I will post it here.
Cheers,
Keshav

 

[Hip]

You might like to break up your posts into paragraphs of around 4 or 5 lines max, separated by blank line, as many ME/CFS patients have cognitive difficulties and find it hard to read a long block of text.

 

[Hip]

. I was really desperate during the search and despite poor or undectable improvements using oral/tablet form ATP, I ordered sublingual ATP-20 tablets from Douglas Laboratories. Taking it three times a day, I found to my disbelief that I was much improved in less than three days. Not great, but better and feeling encouraged. In the interim,

I tried an oral supplement called Swanson Peak ATP, which contains 400 mg of adenosine 5’-triphosphate disodium (the sodium salt of ATP). I did not notice much, maybe a very subtle boost in mood.

Looks like Douglas Laboratories ATP-20 contains 20 mg of adenosine 5’-triphosphate, rather than its sodium salt. ATP I understand is not bioavailable orally, but may potentially be bioavailable sublingually.

Looking a the label of the Heel injectable ATP product, each injectable vial appears to contain 275 mg of ATP.


According to this paper, ATP can cross the cell membrane and enter the cell. However, 275 mg is quite small amount of ATP compared to the total amount of ATP in the body:

It says here:

It has been calculated that the human body contains only 250 g of ATP at any one time,

And here it says:

Only about 80-100 grams of ATP are stored in the body at one time

So it is unlikely the ATP you are taking is supplying much energy, as the amount you inject is only a small fraction of the total ATP in the body.

However, extracellular ATP is known to have signaling actions (called purinergic signaling), which could explain some of the benefits you experience from ATP injections.

 

[Hip]

Since then I have added glutathione and MSM and Transfer Factor to the mix and I've been more "normal" than I've felt in years. I'll be adding Nexavir to the mix and see if it makes any difference. I have to say, as good as it is to not be drooping around the house like a zombie all the time, my mental clarity is bigger benefit.

Would you be able to quantify how much you have improved on the ME/CFS scale of: severe, moderate, mild, remission?

Where were you on that scale before your ATP treatment, and were are you on the scale after the ATP?

 

[heapsreal]

I got tired of seeing CFS specialists that only ever offered me more overpriced supplements. One way or the other, I managed to get myself into a reasonable facsimile of good health with good and bad days. Last March I got mild Covid and been fighting that off and feeling horrendous fatigue, even as most symptoms had faded. I'd been searching forever for injectable ATP not combined with B 12. I used to buy the stuff they sold for vets from a place in Australia (I no longer remember the place) and it helped. But I had quad bypass surgery 2.5 years ago and my cardio guy said to lay off B12 as he claimed it speeded up production of arterial plaque. I was really desperate during the search and despite poor or undectable improvements using oral/tablet form ATP, I ordered sublingual ATP-20 tablets from Douglas Laboratories. Taking it three times a day, I found to my disbelief that I was much improved in less than three days. Not great, but better and feeling encouraged. In the interim,

I found I could get Heel brand injectable ATP offered by several places in Europe It came quickly via DHL from Germany. I injected half an ml in my hip with a bit of Magnesium Sulfate which is supposed to make it more effective. Next morning, I woke up after a bad night sleep, expecting to feel like crap all day, but after being away 15 minutes I noticed my mind was much sharper, my mood was really good and my energy was very good. It's not a "speedy" energy, but rather a nice calm energy.

Since then I have added glutathione and MSM and Transfer Factor to the mix and I've been more "normal" than I've felt in years. I'll be adding Nexavir to the mix and see if it makes any difference. I have to say, as good as it is to not be drooping around the house like a zombie all the time, my mental clarity is bigger benefit. Also, I'm hypoglycemic - yet now if I go crazy and have a small bowl of ice cream, I don't pass out in a coma for 20 minutes. Also, far fewer of my chronic headaches, which I've assumed after so many different (and clueless doctors over the course of 30 years of headaches) is due to herpes virus.

I've decided to see Dr. Susan Levine at Columbia to get a better idea of the underlying cause of my CFS. I went to get all the prescribed blood tests, but half of them were nixed by my health insurance as being "experimental". and I just don't feel desperate enough to lay out $3,500.00 for the tests not covered, so not really sure how useful my time with Dr. Levine will be, but if I learn something new and useful, I will post it here.
Cheers,
Keshav

Have you had blood work showing you had high hematocrit and this was why your dr said to lay off the b12?
B12 along with b6 and folate are well know to lower homocysteine which is a cardiac risk factor.
I know everyone reacts differently but ive taken some pretty high doses of b12 and never had high hematocrit or hemoglobin from it. If you were doung well on the products with b12, it might be worth getting a second opinion on the b12 and ask about your hemoglobin/hematocrit levels??

 

[Keshav]

I tried an oral supplement called Swanson Peak ATP, which contains 400 mg of adenosine 5’-triphosphate disodium (the sodium salt of ATP). I did not notice much, maybe a very subtle boost in mood.

Looks like Douglas Laboratories ATP-20 contains 20 mg of adenosine 5’-triphosphate, rather than its sodium salt. ATP I understand is not bioavailable orally, but may potentially be bioavailable sublingually.

Looking a the label of the Heel injectable ATP product, each injectable vial appears to contain 275 mg of ATP.


According to this paper, ATP can cross the cell membrane and enter the cell. However, 275 mg is quite small amount of ATP compared to the total amount of ATP in the body:

It says here:


And here it says:


So it is unlikely the ATP you are taking is supplying much energy, as the amount you inject is only a small fraction of the total ATP in the body.

However, extracellular ATP is known to have signaling actions (called purinergic signaling), which could explain some of the benefits you experience from ATP injections.

I'm not especially well-versed in the bio-mechanism of supplements. I can only state what my personal experience is. I've found that regular oral ATP, was useless. As per my post, I was very surprised that the sublingual ATP-20 had noticeable effect. The half-ml of injectable ATP worked wonders for me. As I mentioned, I am using it with 2 units of Magnesium Sulfate, which I was told by the doctor who originally prescribed it, in some way activates and makes it more effective.

I am a born skeptic, and not given to flights of fancy regarding the effects of any supplement. In my basement I've got drawers full of reputed miracle supplements that didn't do squat. I keep them as a reminder to trust results only. I have found most doctors, including some hotshot CFS "experts" have mostly been full of hot air as regards Chronic Fatigue. I've been misdiagnosed numerous times by top cardiologists etc, who missed obvious signs pointing to needed therapies, and learned to rely on my own experience and to trust my gut.

 

[Keshav]

Would you be able to quantify how much you have improved on the ME/CFS scale of: severe, moderate, mild, remission?

Where were you on that scale before your ATP treatment, and were are you on the scale after the ATP?

I know nothing of scales. I was dog tired all the time. My limbs felt like lead-weighted water balloons, I was easily overwhelmed by so many things, had low level anxiety. I could drive a car and shop for groceries, but playing guitar for 10 minutes would shake me up and exhaust me, and I'd have to go take a hot bath to calm down. Nasty headaches every day that only responded to Fioricet. Walking up stairs was a chore. I was easily irritable. If I ate anything sweet, I'd pass out in my chair, for 25 minutes.

Four days in - after doing the injectable ATP (and the sublingual ATP 3X BID) - none of that was true. I still have some recurring ache in my thighs and If I really really push myself, I can feel more tired than I feel is rightful. I've been out a few times on my motorcycle for half hour jaunts and felt great afterwards. I'm doing much needed repairs around my house. I'm 67.

 

[Keshav]

Have you had blood work showing you had high hematocrit and this was why your dr said to lay off the b12?
B12 along with b6 and folate are well know to lower homocysteine which is a cardiac risk factor.
I know everyone reacts differently but ive taken some pretty high doses of b12 and never had high hematocrit or hemoglobin from it. If you were doung well on the products with b12, it might be worth getting a second opinion on the b12 and ask about your hemoglobin/hematocrit levels??

Thanks for asking. I don't know the answer to that. I will ask my new cardiologist. I do recall his asking me two years ago if I was taking a lot of B12. Worth looking into. I still have very high quality injectable methalcobalamin in the fridge.

 

[Hip]

I know nothing of scales. I was dog tired all the time. My limbs felt like lead-weighted water balloons, I was easily overwhelmed by so many things, had low level anxiety. I could drive a car and shop for groceries, but playing guitar for 10 minutes would shake me up and exhaust me, and I'd have to go take a hot bath to calm down.

The scale is described in my link. Let me paste it for you:

● Those with mild ME/CFS may be working full or part time, but struggle to do so. Of necessity they may have stopped or curtailed all leisure and social pursuits.

● Those with moderate ME/CFS are generally not able to work, probably don't leave the house much, have to perform domestic chores slowly with breaks and rests, and may need 1 or 2 hour's naps in the middle of day.

● Those with severe ME/CFS are more-or-less fully housebound, and likely bedbound (or lying horizontal on a sofa) for much of the day. They are unable to leave the house except on rare occasions, and usually dependent on a wheelchair for mobility, except for very short walks within the home or garden. They find domestic chores like cooking or any form of housework very difficult or impossible.

● Those with very severe ME/CFS will bedbound nearly 24 hours day, except for a few minutes each day to go to the bathroom. Dependent on help for all daily care. Often unable to tolerate any noise, and are generally extremely sensitive to light.

From your description, sounds like you might be at the moderate level of ME/CFS before treatment, and after taking ATP, may you moved up to mild ME/CFS? Would that be a fair assessment?

(The reason I ask is because I like to collect recovery and improvement stories in this thread, so that's why I wanted to get some details).

Have you only been taking ATP injections for 4 days? I hope the benefits continue for you, but quite often ME/CFS patients find a treatment that works for them, but after a few weeks or months it just mysteriously stops working.

low level anxiety

May be of interest: Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!

If I ate anything sweet, I'd pass out in my chair, for 25 minutes.

Have you been checked for diabetes or prediabetes? You can actually buy a cheap glucose meter and check yourself at home.

I was easily irritable.

I found very-low dose amisulpride works wonders for my ME/CFS irritability. If I don't take it, I get annoyed with everything.

 

[Keshav]

Have you had blood work showing you had high hematocrit and this was why your dr said to lay off the b12?
B12 along with b6 and folate are well know to lower homocysteine which is a cardiac risk factor.
I know everyone reacts differently but ive taken some pretty high doses of b12 and never had high hematocrit or hemoglobin from it. If you were doung well on the products with b12, it might be worth getting a second opinion on the b12 and ask about your hemoglobin/hematocrit levels??

I emailed my cardiologist and asked about hemoglobin. It's after hours on a Friday, so he couldn't tell me what the stats on that are, but he called BS on the B12 being problematic as an issue with arterial plaque. He did say calcium is, so if nothing else, I have awareness of that. Thanks.

 

[heapsreal]

I emailed my cardiologist and asked about hemoglobin. It's after hours on a Friday, so he couldn't tell me what the stats on that are, but he called BS on the B12 being problematic as an issue with arterial plaque. He did say calcium is, so if nothing else, I have awareness of that. Thanks.

Google vitamin k2 and it effects on calcium build up in blood vessels

 

[Keshav]

Looking a the label of the Heel injectable ATP product, each injectable vial appears to contain 275 mg of ATP.


According to this paper, ATP can cross the cell membrane and enter the cell. However, 275 mg is quite small amount of ATP compared to the total amount of ATP in the body:

It says here:


And here it says:


So it is unlikely the ATP you are taking is supplying much energy, as the amount you inject is only a small fraction of the total ATP in the body.

However, extracellular ATP is known to have signaling actions (called purinergic signaling), which could explain some of the benefits you experience from ATP injections.

Again, I'm not a microbilogist, but I think your take on this may be based on a false premise, in that it seems to assume that the injected ATP, is supposed to replace the body's entire requirement for ATP, as if the body were entirely 100% drained of ATP. My understanding is that the injection (like any vitamin or mineral etc) is intended to supplement a partial deficiency.

 

[Hip]

I think your take on this may be based on a false premise, in that it seems to assume that the injected ATP, is supposed to replace the body's entire requirement for ATP

I think of it like this: if you have a 100 watt light bulb, and you increase its power by a quarter watt, that's such a small increase that you are unlikely to notice the slightly greater brightness.

Similarly, if your body has total of 100 grams of ATP, and you add to that total just a quarter gram of extra ATP (which is roughly the ATP content of your injection), you would not expect to notice the increase in energy output.

 

[Keshav]

I think of it like this: if you have a 100 watt light bulb, and you increase its power by a quarter watt, that's such a small increase that you are unlikely to notice the slightly greater brightness.

Similarly, if your body has total of 100 grams of ATP, and you add to that total just a quarter gram of extra ATP (which is roughly the ATP content of your injection), you would not expect to notice the increase in energy output.

In part I would say, it would depend on how perceptive one was. Mind you to my understanding, the amount of ATP required to create a specific degree of improvement is largely an unknown. ATP is not a vitamin. It functions as the energy currency for cells. It allows the cell to store energy briefly and transport it within the cell to support endergonic chemical reactions. It works as a conduit for energy. It's not the energy itself.

Back in the day, I was a theater tech and did Dolby calibration and projection set-up for movie premiers and necessarily, was licensed to to do electrical installations. So your mention of the light bulb reminded me that a given conduit, will have the capacity to carry many different loads. That is how I think of ATP. One can try many protocols to repair the immune system, but energy needs a proper conduit to carry that energy.

In the event I would be interested to know your thoughts re: why some get a great boost of energy from a new protocol and then, as you say, lose the benefit. I assume you're not talking about placebo effect.

 

[Hip]

. It allows the cell to store energy briefly and transport it within the cell to support endergonic chemical reactions. It works as a conduit for energy. It's not the energy itself.

Yes that's right.

I like to think of ATP molecules as a fleet of vans which deliver energy: an ATP molecule picks up energy from the mitochondria, and then goes out to deliver that energy into the cell. Then it returns to the mitochondria to pick up some more energy, and goes out again to deliver it.

I believe one ATP molecule will do this delivery trip around a 1000 times per day.

So when you take a small amount of ATP, in effect you are slightly increasing the size of your delivery fleet. In your case. But if it's only tiny fractional increase in size, you would not expect to feel any surge of energy.


Moreover, if the shortfall in energy in ME/CFS is due to a blockage in the mitochondria itself (as some evidence suggests), then the mitochondria will not be making enough energy to begin with. So in this case it would not matter if you increased the size of your ATP delivery fleet, because there is shortage of energy at the mitochondrial depot.


So for these reasons, my guess is that the benefits you experience from ATP injections might rather come from the hundreds of signaling effects ATP has when it is released into the bloodstream.

Much of this signaling is only triggered when ATP is released from a cell and ejected into the bloodstream. But since your ATP injection will go straight into the bloodstream, it would cause such signaling.

I don't know which particular aspect of ATP signaling might be involved, as I know very little about it, and there are many types of ATP signaling involved (it's a really complex area).

Sometimes the presence of ATP in the blood is perceived as a danger signal by the body: high levels of ATP in the blood suggest cells are being damaged, splitting open and spilling their ATP into the blood (as occurs in a viral infection, were cells are burst open by the virus).

 

[Hip]

In the event I would be interested to know your thoughts re: why some get a great boost of energy from a new protocol and then, as you say, lose the benefit. I assume you're not talking about placebo effect.

I sometimes like to joke that ME/CFS is an sentient intelligent disease: it knows when you are trying to cure it, so it adapts to nullify the effects of any effective cure you may take!

I had this experience myself, with a drug called Wellbutrin: the drug dramatically improved my ME/CFS the instant I started taking it, and for two weeks I became amazing free of brain fog, became very motivated, focused and energized, and I thought I had found my personal ticket out of ME/CFS.

Then on the third week, this drug just mysteriously stopped working, and no matter what I did, I could not get to work for me again. I looked into the biochemistry, but could never figure out why this happened.

 

[Keshav]

I agree re: the disease seeming to adapt. Presently - I am doing really well. I've been doing a combination of injectible ATP, injectible methylcobalamin and injectible Nexavir. I tried the Nexavir cream years ago and it just didn't seem to do it for me. Happy to see they have the original form available again. I don't do all of these on a tight calendar schedule. Maybe I'm justifying being undisciplined or maybe - not having a predictable rhythm confounds the disease. LOL. But I can say - it's working for me.

 

[leea]

I'm so happy you're doing well still! @Keshav!

If you don't mind me asking, approximately how often and how much ATP are you injecting? TIA!

 

[Keshav]

Hi - I've been injecting One CC + 2 units Magnesium Sulfate which my former doctor said makes it work more efficiently. I do that once a week with One CC Methylcobalamin (The more effective B12). Despite all the stress and weirdness of this last year - I'm doing well.

 

[Pyrrhus]

I ordered sublingual ATP-20 tablets from Douglas Laboratories. Taking it three times a day, I found to my disbelief that I was much improved in less than three days. Not great, but better and feeling encouraged.

By the way, some people take Ribose to boost ATP:

Ribose: Why might it work for ME/CFS patients
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/ribose-why-might-it-work-for-me-cfs-patients.82095/