Article: Light on ME/CFS III: A Different Herpes Virus for CFS? - Varicella-Zoster, Shingles and ME/

Article: Light on ME/CFS III: A Different Herpes Virus for CFS? - Varicella-Zoster, S

You can view the page at http://forums.phoenixrising.me/content.php?449-Light-on-ME-CFS-III-A-Different-Herpes-Virus-for-CFS-Varicella-Zoster-Shingles-and-ME-CFS

 

It's interesting that you mention migraine because some researchers think CFS is related in some way to migraine and Baraniuk recently came out with a paper indicating that migraine is substantially increased in CFS. Baraniuks proteome paper suggested that blood vessel problems in the brain are key to CFS; his second study should be out in the next couple of months (hopefully); it'll be very interesting to see what it says. My guess is that someone is going to develop some sort of scan that picks up what's going on - and everyone's jaws will drop.

that'd be really cool!
I wouldn't be surprised if ME were related to migraine (the complex kind with aura), because it's so similar--the only way I can tell the difference between having a migraine and ME symptoms is the migraine causes dissociative aura or weird mood.

On the other hand it could be the dorsal root ganglia - part of the nervous system - but just outside of spinal cord that are dysregulating things in the brain and the body (via the blood vessels)

Or it could be both! I would guess both.

about migraine and MRI, some pages were saying there are no scans (MRI, EEG, etc.) which can show the pathology of migraine and tests are done only to rule out seizure, etc., but I did see one page (after I posted above) that seemed to indicate migraine could be seen during an active migraine on MRI. I'm not sure which story is wrong. Or maybe you need extra-special labels to see migraine activity on MRI? Maybe that's it.

 

for me, this connection know the dorsal root can go in and shingles is spot on. It can explain so many of my symptoms, if not all! My family has a huge history of shingles - everyone except for me. My mother had it in her eyes, my dad couple years ago got the "Ramsay Hunt syndrome" form, my brother's and sister have had it. I have Peripheral neuropathy, with the associated pain ( re: dorsal root ganglion).....

what has popped up in my mind -- and people close to me have mentioned the same thing -- there is a shingles vaccine (Zostavax) out there on the market -- it's recommended for anybody over the age over the age 50 (the FDA lowered the age to 50 from 60 in March, 2011). I have wavered back and forth on getting it -- I wonder what a vaccination expert or Dr. Shapiro or Dr. Light's would say about a ME/CFS patient getting the vaccine?

Could help -- could crash you - might just be dependent on your individual reaction to the vaccine. Who knows? I sure don't.

 

An MRI with contrast is capable of detecting abnormalities statistically connected to cerebral micro-vascular ischemic disease.

 

Cort re Herpes simplex virus-1. Eric at post 31 "my lab results from Dr Bieger" test positve on MxA (anti viral marker - immune activation). Googling MxA threw up a paper (Immunology and Cell Biology - outstanding observation). Herpes simplex virus-1 induces expression of a "novel" MxA isoform that enhances viral replication - supports instead of restricting. Any mileage in this.

http://www.nature.com/icb/journal/v89/n2/abs/icb201083a.html

 

Great area this Cort - it simply ties up with all the symptoms I personally went through (including encephalitis - the worst). Herpes simplex a lifelong infection in varying degrees. I guess what tips the balance would be quite a find, strangely what appeared to be chickenpox also occurred - symptoms shingles and hepatitis (and polio - couldn't breathe) too. Seems the immune is totally overwhelmed. Looking forward to catching sight of the (restraint) culprit !

 

Nice connecting of the dots between the Lights work and Shapiro's theory. Probably there are still other important dots to connect. For example, how about the possibility that the 'CFS triggers' somehow lower immunity to VZV through the NO/ONOO- mechanism, or something related to that? What makes sense to me is that we are in a complicated vicious circle that involves all of the validated factors CFS researchers are uncovering right now.

In my own case, I had a terrible shingles event a few years before my CFS trigger event. So perhaps the VZV was already activated, but did not create CFS immediately. My eventual CFS trigger was the proverbial flu-like illness, which later testing suggested may have been mycoplasma pneumoniae. Probably there have to be multiple co-infects for VZV to establish in the dorsal ganglia, if this theory represents reality anyway.

 

Don't think it's a question of "joining up dots" but pulling together research findings into hopefully the answer (and hope researchers can do too). My eventual trigger flu like illness - but that was obviously not the trigger but the eventual symptom of underlying pathological processes. Reported by the medical advisor MEAssociation who developed chicken pox (serverely after treating a patient with severe shingles and who progressed to ME/CFS) - the Herpes family of viruses with or without "assistance" seem central.

 

Shingles is a reactivation of the chicken pox virus. Herpes lives in the CNS after we have chicken pox. Shingles usually only reactivates under conditions of decreases immunity. It is an opportunistic bug. Some can have lifelong pain after developing shingles, but it is usually quite easy to diagnose. It causes a rash that never crosses the midline because it follows a particular nerve.

Shingles has been around forever and I just don't see this particular virus as causative in ME. It is much more likely opportunistic.

 

that is not true; it can cross the midline altho it rarely happens. As a kid I have had chronic shingles and for me it was on both sides of my spine

 

It causes a rash that never crosses the midline

FYI this is a popular misconception that even doctors doing diagnosis mistakenly adhere to. In the actual medical literature, it is said that it *rarely* crosses the midline. In my case, which had onset several years into ME, it crossed the midline, and at the neck was bilaterally symetrical.

With chronic EBV HSV2 Bartonella and god knows what else, it is no wonder another herpes family dormant variety came out of hiding and acted atypically in my beleaguered body. The VZV attack was triggered by extraction of an upper wisdom tooth that is associated with the trigeminal nerve--which seems analagous to the dorsal root thing. It's been a coupla years since the shingles attack, and much of the time I still have weird fiberglass-feeling in all the places (it was massive) it broke out.

I think there remains much to be done in the way of looking at the synergistic way all these bugs and critters work together.

 

Cort re Herpes simplex virus-1. Eric at post 31 "my lab results from Dr Bieger" test positve on MxA (anti viral marker - immune activation). Googling MxA threw up a paper (Immunology and Cell Biology - outstanding observation). Herpes simplex virus-1 induces expression of a "novel" MxA isoform that enhances viral replication - supports instead of restricting. Any mileage in this.
Published nature.com - sorry can't show link.

Interesting Enid. A nice connection there. Thanks.

 

anyone else have chickenpox or shingles that kick started their cfs off. I was 31 and got chickenpox for the second time in my life, they say you only get it once but??? and from there got ebv, cmv etc. This chickenpox episode was one of the worst episodes of illness in my life aaarrrggghhh, i feel like scratching now, i was just one big pox, and wonder also if this is possibly why my back aches alot as the virus sits in the nerves.

cheers!!!!!!!!!

 

that is not true; it can cross the midline altho it rarely happens. As a kid I have had chronic shingles and for me it was on both sides of my spine

The only time shingles can cross the midline is when more than one nerve is involved. Most cases only involve one nerve. However, if it crosses the midline, it is actually breaking out along two nerves consecutively. You could say you have two outbreaks of shingles. I am sure that would be very uncomfortable.

However, it is still known to occur under periods of extreme stress and immune compromised states. It is not able to account for all the varied symptoms of ME. Yes, you can have fatigue and pain, along with typical viral symptoms. This is nothing close to the brutal course of decades of ME.

 

Could it be that we are just genetic misfits and are immune systems can't handle certain viruses? For example, most people who were susceptible to these viruses probably died off a long time ago. Maybe we were just the unlucky ones that happened on those Genes still left in the Gene pool that make our immune system not able to fight certain viruses? If so, do you think we could answer this question with current Gene testing abilities? Anyone??

I read through this more thoroughly. My son was sick, but he has had the Chicken Pox vaccine. It doesn't fit. Although, he is different then most because he got better. Perhaps it is the herpes virus that a particular person is most susceptible to that causes the disease.

If these viruses aren't as harmless as once thought, maybe scientists should be working harder on vaccines for all herpes viruses. I read an article years ago (when I first got sick with CFS and FMS) in which the author claimed there was actually a vaccine for oral herpes and genital herpes. However, both vaccines did not work on people who already had oral herpes, which is 95% of the population. The author claimed that it could, however, be given to babies before they were exposed to oral herpes and then they would grow up immune to both. If this is true it would be a good example of how drug companies making profit from medicines (Valtrex) keep vaccines off the market.

 

Could it be that we are just genetic misfits and are immune systems can't handle certain viruses? For example, most people who were susceptible to these viruses probably died off a long time ago. Maybe we were just the unlucky ones that happened on those Genes still left in the Gene pool that make our immune system not able to fight certain viruses? If so, do you think we could answer this question with current Gene testing abilities? Anyone??


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How would outbreaks of ME throughout history fit into it being a genetic predisposition or disorder. Incline Village and Surrounding towns, Lyndonville and surrounding towns,The Royal Free hospital etc.. etc... ? Outbreaks like that do not fit into the genetic predisposition model. Only an environmental model could explain outbreaks that seem to spread/affect unrelated individuals in towns , hospitals or other social settings.

 

How would outbreaks of ME throughout history fit into it being a genetic predisposition or disorder. Incline Village and Surrounding towns, Lyndonville and surrounding towns. The Royal free hospital etc.. etc... Outbreaks like that do not fit into the genetic predisposition model. Only an environmental model could explain outbreaks that seem to spread/affect unrelated individuals in towns , hospitals or other social settings.

Makes total sense, Omegaman. I didn't even think of that (the outbreaks). Also,the theory doesn't fit with my son because he was vaccinated for chicken pox.

 

Makes total sense, Omegaman. I didn't even think of that (the outbreaks). Also,the theory doesn't fit with my son because he was vaccinated for chicken pox.

I dont think we make antibodies very well, this would explain your son getting chickenpox and myself getting chickenpox twice, also poor nk function can also allow these virus to cause avoc multiple times. I also had antibodies to ebv, supposedly past infection, now i dont make antibodies to ebv, so who knows, i think its an immune defiency.

cheers!!!

 

How would outbreaks of ME throughout history fit into it being a genetic predisposition or disorder. Incline Village and Surrounding towns, Lyndonville and surrounding towns,The Royal Free hospital etc.. etc... ? Outbreaks like that do not fit into the genetic predisposition model. Only an environmental model could explain outbreaks that seem to spread/affect unrelated individuals in towns , hospitals or other social settings.

Hi omegaman, I too think there is an environmental issue. However, this does not exclude a genetic one. Something causes some to get sick and not others, and it is not clear that exposure to some specifc factor is entirely to blame. Genetic risk may be a component, although some evidence I have heard of but not checked does indicate that most might be at risk. This is because one vaccine trial seemed to induce a CFS-like illness in nearly all patients, which Behan is aware of.

As always, we need more research, which means we need more funding. Funding requires political will.

Bye
Alex

 

Nice connecting of the dots between the Lights work and Shapiro's theory. Probably there are still other important dots to connect. For example, how about the possibility that the 'CFS triggers' somehow lower immunity to VZV through the NO/ONOO- mechanism, or something related to that? What makes sense to me is that we are in a complicated vicious circle that involves all of the validated factors CFS researchers are uncovering right now.

Looking collectively at all factors is a good point. There's an animal study indicating low blood volume upregulates the expression of neuronal NO synthase genes. I wonder if the Lights know the blood volume status of their patients and whether hypovolemia combined with the exercise challenge could be contributing to their gene expression results?

 

How would outbreaks of ME throughout history fit into it being a genetic predisposition or disorder. Incline Village and Surrounding towns, Lyndonville and surrounding towns,The Royal Free hospital etc.. etc... ? Outbreaks like that do not fit into the genetic predisposition model. Only an environmental model could explain outbreaks that seem to spread/affect unrelated individuals in towns , hospitals or other social settings.

I think they can...because not everybody gets sick in those outbreaks - just enough people to raise a red flag. In Incline Village Dr. Peterson said it was about 10% of the population. That suggests a virus hitting everybody and striking down a certain part of the population - perhaps they were immune depleted at the time or they had a genetic predisposition that made it difficult for them to fight off that particular virus. I imagine that's true even in the worst outbreaks.

What about people who get CFS and didn't experience an outbreak? My friends and associates were not getting sick when I did....I imagine that's true for most people....they did not notice their acquaintances getting sick...some did, for sure, I know one woman who's kids and family friends etc. all got really laid out.... but I imagine that most did not??

We also know that several viruses can trigger CFS so its not just one virus...Unless XMRV or something like VZV works out I wonder if there will ever be a focus on just one virus....it could be that a viral attack does something to the system that allows these herpesviruses - since just about everybody carries them...to become reactivated.....or maybe something else happens...