Are endogenous depression and cfs close relatives?

[Sidereal]

I'm not intending to join in this discussion as such and my own view is that depression is a symptom - no more and no less.

What I wanted to say is that I had severe depression for many years after onset which disappeared when my physical symptoms worsened after 12 years. It just occured to me recently (don't know why it took so long) But when I had depression (the symptom) it was actually relieved by bed rest as is my current PEM. I'd go to bed suicidally depressed and after a few hours sleep wake up feeling pretty much over it.

I don't recall ever coming across any discussions of depression relieved by bed rest.

Very interesting. Generally speaking, depression is effectively treated by sleep deprivation. This has a rapid acute but transient antidepressant effect. Perhaps your experience is yet more evidence pointing to depressive symptoms in the context of ME/CFS being caused by different mechanisms than major depression occurring as a standalone illness.

 

[Mij]

@Richie I have always wondered this. I asked the question on this thread
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/anyone-know-their-vo2max.36010/page-2

 

[Richie]

@Richie I have always wondered this. I asked the question on this thread
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/anyone-know-their-vo2max.36010/page-2

I''ll look at that,, thanks.

 

[Richie]

Valentijn
We can disagree on whether I have PEM, commas etc.
Maybe I don't have what you have, some other organic issue, some things in common with you some different, some inputs the same, outputs different.
I still believe in the big tent and that ICC supports this.
To be trite, the most important thing is for everybody to find out what they have, and more importantly how to cure it.
I hope you find sth for yourself and wish the same for all on here.

 

[Marco]

Was that at any time or nighttime bedrest, or with or without sleep?

Any time. With or without sleep but usually with.

 

[A.B.]

Very interesting. Generally speaking, depression is effectively treated by sleep deprivation. This has a rapid acute but transient antidepressant effect. Perhaps your experience is yet more evidence pointing to depressive symptoms in the context of ME/CFS being caused by different mechanisms than major depression occurring as a standalone illness.

My experience is that sufficient sleep is essential to avoid feeling worse, even during times where I would have self-reported as having depression. Insufficient sleep also reduces my body temperature during the day. The same lowered body temperature can also happen during relapses and to a lesser degree after exertion. I wonder what all these things have in common. Supplementing cortisol does raise my body temperature so maybe the lower temperature is a sign of some issue with energy metabolism.

 

[Sidereal]

My experience is that sufficient sleep is essential to avoid feeling worse, even during times where I would have self-reported as having depression. Insufficient sleep also reduces my body temperature during the day. The same lowered body temperature can also happen during relapses and to a lesser degree after exertion. I wonder what all these things have in common. Supplementing cortisol does raise my body temperature so maybe the lower temperature is a sign of some issue with energy metabolism.

During periods of overexertion and PEM my mood tanks, as does my body temperature. I think you're right that it reflects a problem with energy metabolism. Raising your temperature is energetically very costly. Notice how most of us with ME/CFS cannot mount a fever even when we get an infection.

 

[Rand56]

Very interesting. Generally speaking, depression is effectively treated by sleep deprivation. This has a rapid acute but transient antidepressant effect.

This is exactly what happened to me years ago. I intentionally tried to sleep deprive myself to see if it could help my depression. It did. After about 2 nights straight of no sleep..my brain felt so wired, which actually kept me awake for 2 more nights. After 4 nights of sleep deprivation...it kicked in, my depression was totally lifted. Didn't last. Once my body got back into my regular sleeping pattern at the time, my depression came back.

 

[Sidereal]

This is exactly what happened to me years ago. I intentionally tried to sleep deprive myself to see if it could help my depression. It did. After about 2 nights straight of no sleep..my brain felt so wired, which actually kept me awake for 2 more nights. After 4 nights of sleep deprivation...it kicked in, my depression was totally lifted. Didn't last. Once my body got back into my regular sleeping pattern at the time, my depression came back.

Right, unfortunately the trick only lasts a short while. It appears as if it resets the abnormal circadian clock somehow. Circadian rhythm dysfunction is a consequence of a deranged NADH/NAD+ ratio in the suprachiasmatic nucleus in the hypothalamus. In depression where energy metabolism deficit is nowhere near as severe as in ME/CFS the massive stress/wired thing you get from not sleeping (catecholamine surge) can temporarily get some energy production going, followed by a crash eventually when you have to start sleeping again.

Many people with depression, especially teenagers, tend to be night owls and even stay up all night frequently because they realise on some level that it's the only thing that makes them feel better. It's very risky if you have an underlying bipolar illness because it can make you flip into a manic episode. Sleep deprivation is a notorious trigger for that.

 

[Rand56]

Right, unfortunately the trick only lasts a short while. It appears as if it resets the abnormal circadian clock somehow. Circadian rhythm dysfunction is a consequence of a deranged NADH/NAD+ ratio in the suprachiasmatic nucleus in the hypothalamus. In depression where energy metabolism deficit is nowhere near as severe as in ME/CFS the massive stress/wired thing you get from not sleeping (catecholamine surge) can temporarily get some energy production going, followed by a crash eventually when you have to start sleeping again.

Many people with depression, especially teenagers, tend to be night owls and even stay up all night frequently because they realise on some level that it's the only thing that makes them feel better. It's very risky if you have an underlying bipolar illness because it can make you flip into a manic episode. Sleep deprivation is a notorious trigger for that.

Always thought it might have something to do with a dysfunction in the circadian rhythm. When you say a consequence of a deranged NADH/NAD+ ratio, are you saying this ratio is too high, and to try to combat this, one has to try to raise NAD+?

 

[Sidereal]

Always thought it might have something to do with a dysfunction in the circadian rhythm. When you say a consequence of a deranged NADH/NAD+ ratio, are you saying this ratio is too high, and to try to combat this, one has to try to raise NAD+?

I believe it's the opposite. The ratio is too low, we're too oxidised. This puts us into starvation metabolism characterised by low body temperature and a high sympathetic tone.

 

[Rand56]

I believe it's the opposite. The ratio is too low, we're too oxidised. This puts us into starvation metabolism characterised by low body temperature and a high sympathetic tone.

Ah OK, so the plan is to raise NADH. What is the best way to do this? Take the NADH supplement?

It's actually good to know that somone actually understands my sleep deprivation experiment and that it helped, albeit temporarily. I've told other people about this before and they have looked at me like I'm effin nuts LOL. I'm not even bipolar.

 

[Rand56]

@Sidereal

Since you seem to be very knowledgeable in this area, let me ask you something. Tell me if I'm mistaken, isn't Niacinamide one of the supps than can help raise NAD? Anytime I have tried taking Niacinamide it makes my depression worse. If what you are saying relates to my situation, then it makes sense that I should not be trying to raise NAD correct?

 

[Sidereal]

Ah OK, so the plan is to raise NADH. What is the best way to do this? Take the NADH supplement?

I don't think NADH supplements help most people here from what I read although some report benefits. It's probably pointless taking this in the grand scheme of things. What we need is to somehow fix the oxidising conditions in the body but that would require figuring out a) what's causing the problem in the first place and b) coming up with some sort of a treatment for it.

It's actually good to know that somone actually understands my sleep deprivation experiment and that it helped, albeit temporarily. I've told other people about this before and they have looked at me like I'm effin nuts LOL. I'm not even bipolar.

You're not nuts. There is a literature on sleep deprivation and depression. I haven't read it; I'm just aware of its existence.

What's your sleep pattern like? Does your energy wax and wane during the 24-hour cycle?

 

[Sidereal]

@Sidereal

Since you seem to be very knowledgeable in this area, let me ask you something. Tell me if I'm mistaken, isn't Niacinamide one of the supps than can help raise NAD? Anytime I have tried taking Niacinamide it makes my depression worse. If what you are saying relates to my situation, then it makes sense that I should not be trying to raise NAD correct?

Right.

Ok so I presume you are aware that depression is a state of chronic low grade inflammation leading to "sickness behaviour"? What happens when you have an infection is this:

http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v13/n7/images/nrn3257-f1.jpg

Inflammation activates that IDO enzyme so your tryptophan is shunted away from serotonin & melatonin production toward the kynurenine pathway. If you follow the flowchart down to the bottom you will see that the end product of the kynurenine pathway is NAD+.

 

[Rand56]

I don't think NADH supplements help most people here from what I read although some report benefits. It's probably pointless taking this in the grand scheme of things. What we need is to somehow fix the oxidising conditions in the body but that would require figuring out a) what's causing the problem in the first place and b) coming up with some sort of a treatment for it.



You're not nuts. There is a literature on sleep deprivation and depression. I haven't read it; I'm just aware of its existence.

What's your sleep pattern like? Does your energy wax and wane during the 24-hour cycle?

I tried the NADH supplement a long time ago and it was a waste of money. I've also read where not many people get benefit from it.

I feel best when I get less sleep. My body has been conditioned on getting anywhere from 5.5 to no more than 6 hours of sleep a night for years now. If for any reason, I get less sleep than this, it is more helpful for my depression, but I know that eventually catches up with me. If I end up getting more than 5.5 to 6 hours of sleep per night, I am more sluggish the next day. Obviously anytime I feel more sluggish, I sense my depression is worse.

 

[Rand56]

Right.

Ok so I presume you are aware that depression is a state of chronic low grade inflammation leading to "sickness behaviour"? What happens when you have an infection is this:

http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v13/n7/images/nrn3257-f1.jpg

Inflammation activates that IDO enzyme so your tryptophan is shunted away from serotonin & melatonin production toward the kynurenine pathway. If you follow the flowchart down to the bottom you will see that the end product of the kynurenine pathway is NAD+.

Yes, I'm aware that depression may also be caused by excessive inflammation. I have taken curcumin before, but I've had to take an insanely high amount of it to feel any effects from it. I'm talking 3200 mg's of the extract along with the bioperine for increased absorption. Don't know if it was the anti-inflammatory effects and/or the MAOI effects that gave me a more positive response. Could have been the combo. I felt it may not be the best thing to take that high of a dose on a continual basis, and that I could be just masking over some other core issue.

Ok so tamping down inflammation can get your tryptophan to produce more serotonin. But is extra serotonin production really the answer to help depressives? If you believe what Ray Peat says, and I'm certainly not smart enough to know if he is right or not, but his belief is that more serotonin production is evil.

As far as my own situation, some years after my bout of MDD, I was diagnosed as "borderline" ADD. Started on Ritalin, which abolished my depression, problem was, I had to continue to take a higher dosage of it for the same positive effect. So I do not think more serotonin production is the answer for my situation. Plus the fact that when I tried an SSRI years ago, it was absolutely the worst drug for me.

Just looking at that graph you posted, and being that you said less NAD production would be of benefit to me, then you can also get there by just limiting tryptophan intake. Another reason why the Peat folk do gelatin, a good protein source that has zero tryptophan in it.

 

[Sidereal]

Yes, I'm aware that depression may also be caused by excessive inflammation. I have taken curcumin before, but I've had to take an insanely high amount of it to feel any effects from it. I'm talking 3200 mg's of the extract along with the bioperine for increased absorption. Don't know if it was the anti-inflammatory effects and/or the MAOI effects that gave me a more positive response. Could have been the combo. I felt it may not be the best thing to take that high of a dose on a continual basis, and that I could be just masking over some other core issue.

Ok so tamping down inflammation can get your tryptophan to produce more serotonin. But is extra serotonin production really the answer to help depressives? If you believe what Ray Peat says, and I'm certainly not smart enough to know if he is right or not, but his belief is that more serotonin production is evil.

As far as my own situation, some years after my bout of MDD, I was diagnosed as "borderline" ADD. Started on Ritalin, which abolished my depression, problem was, I had to continue to take a higher dosage of it for the same positive effect. So I do not think more serotonin production is the answer for my situation. Plus the fact that when I tried an SSRI years ago, it was absolutely the worst drug for me.

Just looking at that graph you posted, and being that you said less NAD production would be of benefit to me, then you can also get there by just limiting tryptophan intake. Another reason why the Peat folk do gelatin, a good protein source that has zero tryptophan in it.

If curcumin helps, I'd keep taking it. It's such a great compound, I wish I could tolerate it. Should help with the leaky gut too.

I'm not surprised the SSRI was bad for you. From what you're describing it sounds as though you have a low catecholamine depression which improves from sleep deprivation. Taking serotonin or melatonin would be depressant hell. You could look into a norepinephrine and dopamine reuptake inhibitor like bupropion or norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors like atomoxetine or reboxetine. They might help with depression and attention deficit in situations like this and they might worsen these problems in different types of depression. Problem with these drugs is that tolerance tends to develop, sometimes rapidly.

Ray Peat sure is nutty but I can't disagree that taking tryptophan when you're in this state is like adding fuel to the fire. The pathogens use it too to grow stronger. Gelatin is certainly worth trying to replace some of the daily meat protein so as to reduce tryptophan poisoning.

Since serotonergic drugs were discovered depression has gone from being a quite rare and generally episodic illness with good inter-episodic functioning to nowadays of ubiquitous SSRI use being a condition that 1 in 6 people have, with very high rates of incapacitation/disability because it now tends to follow a much more chronic course with high prevalence of treatment resistance. Correlation is not causation so while we can't say that the drugs are causing this malignant transformation we can say for certain that these drugs sure as hell haven't made things better overall.

 

[Rand56]

If curcumin helps, I'd keep taking it. It's such a great compound, I wish I could tolerate it. Should help with the leaky gut too.

I'm not surprised the SSRI was bad for you. From what you're describing it sounds as though you have a low catecholamine depression which improves from sleep deprivation. Taking serotonin or melatonin would be depressant hell. You could look into a norepinephrine and dopamine reuptake inhibitor like bupropion or norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors like atomoxetine or reboxetine. They might help with depression and attention deficit in situations like this and they might worsen these problems in different types of depression. Problem with these drugs is that tolerance tends to develop, sometimes rapidly.

Ray Peat sure is nutty but I can't disagree that taking tryptophan when you're in this state is like adding fuel to the fire. The pathogens use it too to grow stronger. Gelatin is certainly worth trying to replace some of the daily meat protein so as to reduce tryptophan poisoning.

Since serotonergic drugs were discovered depression has gone from being a quite rare and generally episodic illness with good inter-episodic functioning to nowadays of ubiquitous SSRI use being a condition that 1 in 6 people have, with very high rates of incapacitation/disability because it now tends to follow a much more chronic course with high prevalence of treatment resistance. Correlation is not causation so while we can't say that the drugs are causing this malignant transformation we can say for certain that these drugs sure as hell haven't made things better overall.

I've done both bupropion and reboxetine. I fared better with bupropion, but I got wicked insomnia from it. Helped my depression, but there again, was it the AD effect from the drug, or just the lack of sleep that made me feel better LOL.

In any event, I'm now trialing a histamine H3 antagonist. What the hell, give something else a whirl LOL

 

[Rand56]

@Sidereal

Have any thoughts on possible "hypo"functioning NMDA receptors? Could they possibly be hypo from a whacked out circadian rhythm issue? I've been taking some D-serine which does seem to help some.