Are endogenous depression and cfs close relatives?

[lansbergen]

We see apathy

ME patients are not apathic

 

[Mij]

. . . and you don't treat "both" with "exertion". clueless article.

"This brought to the scientific community’s attention the correlation between CFS and depression and made it clear that physicians should watch for signs of depression among patients with CFS.

Fatigue and depression can exist in an endless cycle that may seem unbreakable, but by treating both conditions and exerting more physical activity, patients may be able to lessen symptoms of both fatigue and depression.

Most of all, research lets the medical community know that both conditions do often exist together and should be treated simultaneousl".

 

[Valentijn]

Fatigue and depression can exist in an endless cycle that may seem unbreakable, but by treating both conditions and exerting more physical activity, patients may be able to lessen symptoms of both fatigue and depression.

I'm not sure what the relevance is supposed to be to ME/SEID. We don't have "fatigue", or "chronic fatigue". By definition, exercise makes us more ill. So it would seem that you're supporting the view that depression and ME/SEID are distinct entities.

And it's a very poor source which you've quoted. They describe CFS as being fatigue-focused, make no mention of PEM, and used self-reports via a mass-mailed survey to determine CFS status.

 

[Valentijn]

Fatigue as a Residual Symptom of Depression

This one doesn't even pretend to be about CFS - so again, what's the point? We do not have "fatigue".

 

[Richie]

The article is right to state that fatigue and depression co-occur.

It would be as wrong to then equate "fatigue" with ME/CFS, as it would be to equate fatigue with e.g. MS. Fatigue is a very broad concept, though from my experience fatigue is an obvious component of PEM. I do not know a better word.

As to treating both fatigue and depression simultaneously, if a patient has depression and PEM, which by definition is worsened by exercise, then they cannot be treated simultaneously by increased physical exertion, as this will worsen the PEM. Fatigue in a non PEM depressive might be thus treated. Different patient categories.

How many people with a diagnosis of ME, have what sort of fatigue, how they got it, why it continues etc. etc. is the subject of this forum.

This kind of article demonstrates to an extent why psychiatrists and GPs who are familiar with depression should be made aware that depression can exist in ME, as it can in e.g. Parkinson's but that this does not make ME = Depression any more than PD = depression. Armed with such knowledge doctors will cease to treat ME cases with depression as depressives with fatigue.

 

[amaru7]

you're supporting the view that depression and ME/SEID are distinct entities.

I didn't claim otherwise , again I see paralels between those diseases more than others, there are also similarities to MS and other conditions aswell, but the outrage from some like you goes on how stigmatized so-called "mental illness" is. Fatigue/PEM are the just two sides of a coin to me and again CFS is not depression. Nobody ever said so.

Let me remind you that there's a poll and about a third of CFS patients do have depression.

 

[Snowdrop]

This is an ME forum. There are a lot of people here. They are telling you that fatigue is not ME. Fatigue is a symptom of a great many things. Depression is not fundamental to ME. Since a cross section of the population have ME it stands to reason that some subset may have co morbid depression. There are plenty of ME sufferers who do not. They have other neurological, endocrinological, and autoimmune symptoms (I don't discount depression being neurological). Lastly, exercise does not improve ME.

 

[amaru7]

Depression is not fundamental to ME.

It surely is, about over 30% do have some depression along with CFS/ME. If your not one of them, you're lucky.

exercise does not improve ME.

Yea, I know unfortunately.. the article above is about depression and fatigue, not CFS/ME-

 

[Mij]

Yea, I know unfortunately.. the article above is about depression and fatigue, not CFS/ME-

This is an M.E forum. You should post this article on a depression forum.

 

[Undisclosed]

I didn't claim otherwise , again I see paralels between those diseases more than others, there are also similarities to MS and other conditions aswell, but the outrage from some like you goes on how stigmatized so-called "mental illness" is. Fatigue/PEM are the just two sides of a coin to me and again CFS is not depression. Nobody ever said so.

Let me remind you that there's a poll and about a third of CFS patients do have depression.

PS: Be nice and respect that not everyone shares your opinion, no matter how well-founded so that we can have a constructive communication. We all suffer to some degree and should care for the fact, even if we dont see each other through the privacy of the net.

Why do you think that a third of CFS patients on this forum said they also have depression. Could it be related to having your health taken away from you, being unable to earn a living or work, being treated like you are a lazy faker by most doctors, being unbelieved by your family and friends, having to constantly fight for crumbs of research funding that usually gets into the pockets of psychobabblers, being offered anti-depressants, CBT and/or GET as the only acceptable treatments, being bed bound or house bound for months on end. It's shocking to me that many more don't get depressed.

The thing is, people are more likely to develop some level of depression if they have chronic health problems -- it happens to people with Cancer, people with MS, people with diabetes, people with arthritis, people with heart conditions etc, etc, -- why because chronically bad ill health is a risk for depression.

 

[Richie]

No harm in discussing an article imo.

 

[amaru7]

. . . and you don't treat "both" with "exertion". clueless article.

I agree, didn't read that carefully enough. But really, when it comes to treatments both conditions really suck. I am one that never responded to neither antidepressants, talking therapy or additional exertion. And neither did methylating supplements, detox regieme I've done at the CFS clinic, diet changes with allergy check, antibiotics, antivirals etc.etc.

Lately I've been trying Modafinil and it doesn't seem to help yet (been on 100mg about 3-4days)except for some mood fluctuations, soon I'll hopefully recieve my HGH and see how that goes for both conditions and the symptoms I have.

 

[Richie]

I agree, didn't read that carefully enough. But really, when it comes to treatments both conditions really suck. I am one that never responded to neither antidepressants, talking therapy or additional exertion. And neither did methylating supplements, detox regieme I've done at the CFS clinic, diet changes with allergy check, antibiotics, antivirals etc.etc.

Lately I've been trying Modafinil and it doesn't seem to help yet (been on 100mg about 3-4days)except for some mood fluctuations, soon I'll hopefully recieve my HGH and see how that goes for both conditions and the symptoms I have.

Have you tried low dose naltrexone or T3/armour thyroid?

 

[Snowdrop]

But really, when it comes to treatments both conditions really suck. I am one that never responded to neither antidepressants, talking therapy or additional exertion. And neither did methylating supplements, detox regieme I've done at the CFS clinic, diet changes with allergy check, antibiotics, antivirals etc.etc.

I'm sorry to hear that your depression and ME have been treatment resistant thus far. It does suck that so little effort has been made so far to find proper treatment (here I'm referring to ME).

I think part of the issue around discussing depression is in my opinion simply that the illness 'depression' casts too wide a net.
Or to put it another way, just as we discuss here on PR the possibility that ME is not one but a group of illnesses (see: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/do-mes-cause-cfs.31930/) depression is poorly understood. Low mood, grief or short term/temporary depression due to circumstance get easily mistaken for the long term biochemical resistant illness that is at the core of the illness. I may not be explaining myself well. Certainly some PWME will fall at some point into the category of situational --what would be called depression as they come to grips with long term illness and learn ways to cope. I don't think it's necessarily the same thing as the type that defies any treatment and is deep and long lasting (think of the German pilot).

At the end of the day there is a lot we don't know but the situation for PWME is enough to explain why they might feel distress without needing to be classified as also suffering depression.

I'd like to also point out that there are a lot of people here who understand suffering and they certainly do not hold any stigma to people with depression who are also badly treated by the medical community. If anything there is a more empathy.

Since you are in the position of having tried treatments without success I would think that you would want to spend energy trying to advocate for better funding for research and treatment rather than trying to convince us of the connection between these two illnesses.
What possible use could it be to researching/treating the cause of ME looking for treatment and a cure if you lobby for an idea that conflates the two.

 

[Sea]

but the outrage from some like you goes on how stigmatized so-called "mental illness" is.

The outrage has zero to do with the stigma of mental illness. This is the argument used over and over by the psychs. The outrage has to do with treating it as something it is not and therefore of zero use. We would be equally outraged if it were lumped with cancer or ms etc and treated with their medications because it would not help us.

 

[Richie]

We are outraged at misdiagnosis rather than at mental illness per se.

But the more we understand about fatigue in depression, the easier it is to combat those who equate ME/CFS with depression. So I don't see that Amaru has done anything wrong in posting her articles, even if they are open to criticism.

Some time back low natural killer cell function was being touted as a marker for ME/CFS. Guess what. It occurs in depression (some types) too ! The more we know about depression, the more we can draw meaningful and accurate contrasts with ME/CFS, which is what we all want.

 

[amaru7]

It is absolutely with the stigma, people get defensive, because they think CFS is a serious physical illness and not a "mental" one like depression. Like "It's not all in my head, I'm seriously ill, bla bla" well that's the misunderstanding right there, endogenous depression is just as physical as CFS and has many similar biomarkers, genetic, immune, neurological, mitochondrial.
CFS patients can benefit from advance in research of depresion and vice versa as it is a multisystemic illness and absolutely not homogenous. so interdisciplinary research is always beneficial. (Yes also MS, cancer, thyroid etc.) Prof.Dr. de meirleir said that there are as many different cases as there are patients.

Professionals themself admit that the disease is poorly understood still to this date. Heck one doc even said in his book "if you understand ME/CFS, you can understand every disease"

I remain at my standpoint that the two diseases seem to have more in common than some might think.

 

[Sea]

It is absolutely with the stigma, people get defensive, because they think CFS is a serious physical illness and not a "mental" one like depression. Like "It's not all in my head, I'm seriously ill, bla bla" well that's the misunderstanding right there, endogenous depression is just as physical as CFS and has many similar biomarkers, genetic, immune, neurological, mitochondrial.

No, it is not the stigma of mental illness. Please stop trying to tell us what we think.

Again, it is the misdiagnosis, no matter what the misdiagnosis is.

I know how serious depression can be and firmly believe it is a physical illness. I have close friends and family members who suffer terribly. Depression needs research and ME/CFS needs research, but saying they are related because they share some symptoms is not helpful at all.

 

[Mij]

Some time back low natural killer cell function was being touted as a marker for ME/CFS. Guess what. It occurs in depression (some types) too ! The more we know about depression, the more we can draw meaningful and accurate contrasts with ME/CFS, which is what we all want.

In that case, why do you keep focusing on vague similarities and ignoring the many distinctive differences?

 

[amaru7]

Agreed, the title should have been different. I quickly jumped to the conclusion because some of the symptoms and the mitochondrial defect is probable in depression too.
Considering http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_The_Central_Cause:_Mitochondrial_Failure

Again, ME/CFS is clearly distinct to depression and not the same. But interdisciplinary research is beneficial for all of us.