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AOR's new NO Supplement

Gestalt

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AOR has a fancy new website(http://www.axiomahealth.ca/) promoting their "breakthrough" Nitrous Oxide supplement.

Arginine NOx supplements have been on the market for ages and have largely proven to be ineffective at increasing NO levels. AOR has something completely different to offer.

What's interesting is the methodology AOR is using to increase NO.
"There are two ways that NO is produced in our body.

1. Arginine Pathway: NO can be produced from the amino acid L-Arginine by enzymes called nitric oxide synthases.
The problem is that high doses of L-Arginine and plenty of oxygen and energy is needed otherwise this conversion becomes inefficient. This is especially true during exercise, when oxygen is limited. Until recently this was the only identified mechanism to produce NO in the human body.

2. NOx 3,2,1 Pathway: NO can be made from components found in certain vegetables called nitrates that get converted quickly into NO in the stomach. This action is much faster and does not require enzymes. Also, only small quantities of nitrates are required and most importantly, this process takes place very effectively under high oxygen conditions but also when low oxygen levels are present. This offers an additional source of NO and can complement or supersede the L-Arginine pathway." (http://www.axiomahealth.ca/#!the-power-of-nitric-oxide)




*Note: All pictures from http://www.axiomahealth.ca/magazine#!__magazine


What I find interesting about this supplement is the potential it may have to help those with compromised NOS Pathways. Which incidentally affects about 45% of people with CFS according to a Yasko genetic study.

“NOS (Nitric Oxide Synthase) – helps in the formation of nitric oxide which has a role in oxidative stress and chemical production. If NOS mutation is present it can affect the urea cycle with respects to ammonia detoxification (hand-flapping, over-stimulatory behavior).

• NOS D298E (-/-) = no mutation.
• NOS D298E (+/-) = heterozygous mutation. Partial defect in system.
• NOS D298E (+/+) = homozygous mutation. Both genes affected. Major issue with NOS effects. Primarily related to ammonia detoxification issues in association with CBS mutation.” (http://www.vsan.org/rok-az/methylation/Genetic_Analysis_Report_summary_sheet_1.pdf)

This also has implications for the production of peroyxnitrite.

“NOS is also involved in ammonia detoxification, a job that distracts it from its Nitric Oxide generating duties and which uses up BH4. Without adequate levels of BH4 Nitric Oxide Synthase will not convert Arginine in to beneficial Nitric Oxide, but rather in to undesirable free radical species such as superoxide or peroxynitrite.” (http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm#NOS: Nitric Oxide Synthase)

For an extensive write up on the NO/ONOO – cycle check out Martin L. Pall’s website. (http://www.thetenthparadigm.org/index.html)

My only concern is, might taking nitrate supplements/food increase peroxynitrite? Or would it have the opposite effect by taking a load of BH4 giving the NOS pathway a break? What do you guys think?
AOR is rather hush-hush about what exactly is in their product calling it a "proprietary blend". However the relationship to diet's high in natural organic nitrates is very fascinating.
 

greenshots

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This is a long Yasko answer but i think she sorta answers your question


"Ammonia will be converted to urea via the urea cycle. This is an expensive
process from the standpoint of BH4 as it uses two molecules of BH4. So the
conversion of elevated levels of ammonia can quickly drain limited stores
of BH4. This can then impact the levels of serotonin and dopamine. I
believe that this is part of the reason why the combination of a CBS C699T
+ + with the A1298C homozygous mutation (which I believe impacts the
reverse reaction through the MTHFR to generate BH4) can have such a
devastating effect.

You are correct that arginine is a starting point in the urea cycle.
However, I do not believe that arginine is the rate limiting factor here.
I think that BH4 is the rate limiting factor in most cases. Arginine can
stimulate the growth of virus. This has been particularly well studied for
herpes virus. So adding additional arginine may lead to increased growth
of herpes virus and may not help the urea cycle if it is not the rate
limiting factor.

Arginine that is not used by the urea cycle can be used to make
creatinine. So if we can decrease the amount of ammonia that is generated.
Then we are using less BH4 and less arginine in the urea cycle. This will
free up BH4 for serotonin and dopamine. It will also free up arginine for
creatinine.

This is all lovely in theory, but what do we actually see in practice?
When we go to a low protein diet, we observe an increase in creatinine and
an increase in metal excretion. This would suggest that we may be on the
right track in addressing this problem. This is another reason to monitor
urines carefully as it may appear as if behaviors are deteriorating and
that a low protein diet is not working, when in fact this is a result of
increased creatinine and metal excretion. I suspect that some of the
behaviors that have been attributed to yeast (silly behavior following
food) may in fact be high ammonia levels generated as a result of CBS up
regulation. This imbalance in ammonia levels will most likely contribute
to gut imbalances and exacerbate yeast issues.

The good news is that the more we understand what is going on the easier
it is to address it. We are in the process of evaluating the benefits of
low protein diets, RNAs and the possible use of BH4 supplementation to
address these mutations. Each day we move a little bit closer to getting
the necessary answers to know how to address these issues"
 

Gestalt

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Just wanted to report I started taking the Immunox version of this supplement and it has done wonders for my energy. One of the major issues I had with my CFS was severe afternoon fatigue to the point where I could barely stay awake. This supplement completely resolved that problem and I have considerably more energy throughout the day. My mental concentration has also improved dramatically. I can read dense material for hours now without tiring. In a lot of ways it has changed my life. I'd be curious to see if it helps others like it helped me.

Since the theory is based on boosting NO levels by consuming nitrates & nitrites, I am considering juicing lots of bok choy to see if I can get the same effect as taking the supplement.
 

Victronix

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Everything I see talking about this recommends beet juice. That's probably easier than bok choy. A good juice I've made is juicing together raw apple, beet, ginger and carrot. My stomach has a hard time with carrot, though, I believe because it is so basic, but adding the other ingredients helps that.
 

Lotus97

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What about just taking Arginine, Citrulline, and Ornithine. I don't know if I want to take some fancy new supplement right now because I'm already taking a lot supplements.
 

dbkita

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Any concern that amplifying the nitrate / nitrite pathway may adversely increase peroxynitrite?
 
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Just wanted to report I started taking the Immunox version of this supplement and it has done wonders for my energy. One of the major issues I had with my CFS was severe afternoon fatigue to the point where I could barely stay awake. This supplement completely resolved that problem and I have considerably more energy throughout the day. My mental concentration has also improved dramatically. I can read dense material for hours now without tiring. In a lot of ways it has changed my life. I'd be curious to see if it helps others like it helped me.
@Gestalt that's awesome to hear. Did it continue to work for you? It'd be great to hear your follow-up story. I slump badly every afternoon and looking for ways to stay focused and alert.
 

ahmo

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@Beagle the Immunox supp is olive leaf extract + green tea. You can get both of these in several forms, either loose as tea, or green tea extract, liquid extra strength olive leaf extract. I'm using tea forms of both.

Martin Pall recommends high dose antioxidants to help regulate NO, from NO/ONOO cycle. vid and text linked in my signature. Last 20" of vid list many supp suggestions.
 
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@ahmo Thanks for the info on what's in it - olive leaf extract seems pretty powerful.

For you, what changes happened when you started to take it?
What do you experience if you stop taking it for a couple of days/weeks?
 

ahmo

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@Beagle I'm just using olive leaf w/ my tea. Passiflora, olive leaf, Calif poppy, w/ green tea is what I've been using for some months. I don't stop taking it. I now understand that even if I'm inactive, my body is always tending toward excess peroxynitrite/oxidative stress. So I see a range of antioxidants as my long term strategy. A year ago it wasn't at all a part of my thinking.

What changed: I'd get a distinct taste in my mouth, similar to, but not, metallic. Squinty eyes, light-headed, verging on headachey. poss. slight breathlessness, restlessness. More to the point, when I first began this strategy, I found that it prevented me from crashing. I'd be right on the edge, but antiox + lie down = saved.
 

South

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the Immunox supp is olive leaf extract + green tea
AND it is nitrate: that product called Immunox has 259 mg of nitrate as potassium nitrate. This is an important part of it if (a big "if") the theory is correct that eating more nitrates changes the body's nitric oxide levels, leading to some kind of positive result in symptoms.

Beets are a source of natural nitrates, for anyone wanting to mimic that supplement by taking other brands of olive leaf and green tea...take them and eat some beets, I suppose.

I only saw a few other threads on Nitrates, like:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...n-me-cfs-treatments.34516/page-10#post-599568
 

JPV

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@Gestalt,

Have you heard of Dave Whitlock's AO+ Mist? It's a probiotic spray that's supposed to help boost Nitric Oxide by oxidizing ammonia on the skin.

He wrote an article, several years ago, explaining his theory that ME/CFS is caused by a disruption in the body's NO mechanism...

An Engineering Perspective on CFS

I purchased a month's supply of an early version of the product a few months ago but the results weren't conclusive. I think the problem may be that I'm just too sedentary for the product to work for me since the NO producing bacteria are dependent on ammonia, from sweat, as a substrate.

Oddly enough I used to sweat too much in the first few years after coming down with this illness but not anymore. I've read that it's common for this to change as time goes on.