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Any opinions on Sponaugle Wellness Institute for Lyme treatment ?

beaverfury

beaverfury
Messages
503
Location
West Australia
They have a load of glowing testimonials on youtube

And some here..
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2736426
'This is not for everyone but it seems to work for a lot of people. They have about a 9% failure or relapse rate which is pretty impressive for the over 12,000+ patients that have walked through those doors. While there I saw many people who were wheeled in and were on their last leg with things like organ failure in addition to lyme and mold and the rest of it.'

http://sponauglewellness.com/wellness-programs/lyme-disease/
 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
I think that this is where the Real Housewife of BH, Yolanda Foster, went for at least part of her Lyme treatment.

She is wealthy enough to go anywhere she wanted so...that says something. Whether or not it says that their methods work well for everyone, I'm not sure.

It's an investment for sure though. I think you have to live in the area for a few months and get regular IVs.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Personally, I'd be cautious.

Just glanced at the website, but some stuff looked dodgy, eg:

The Science of Lyme Treatment and Problematic Antibiotic Therapy
Antibiotic Therapy Induces Brain Chemistry Changes That Exacerbate Lyme-induced Depression and Anxiety.
At Sponaugle Wellness Institute, we have analyzed over 8,000 brain chemistry patterns, more than any other clinic in America. We have correlated abnormal brain chemistry patterns with Lyme bio-marker CD 57 levels and the abnormalities seen on the brain scans of our Lyme patients. This research is unprecedented world wide.

Our Lyme research has proven that antibiotic-induced changes in brain chemistry cause excessive electrical activity in two specific brain regions as seen below in red. When these brain regions become severely overactive, patients develop depression and a “worry-worry type of anxiety.



When Lyme patients develop an overactive deep limbic center, they suffer with depression, moodiness, negativity, irritability, hopelessness, excessive guilt, social anxiety and they become more easily offended.

When Lyme patients develop an overactive anterior cingulate, they become more argumentative, more stubborn, hyper focused on the negative, and they develop obsessive compulsive worry.

Antibiotic Therapy Causes Increased Lyme Resistance
Using antibiotic therapy before adequate dissolution of Bio-film formation increases antibiotic resistance in Lyme patients. Lyme and other tick borne microorganisms manufacture a polysaccharide matrix called bio-film. Bio-film is a protective shield produced by these microorganisms for protection, to wall themselves off from our antibodies and natural killer cells.



According to the American Association of Quantum Medicine, the more we use antibiotics to treat bio-film producing microorganisms, the stronger and more resistant the organisms will become. Furthermore, these scientists [microbiologists] suggest that bio-film producing-drug resistant microorganisms can only be conquered by enhancing the natural “kill power” of the immune system.

Recent studies from the Center for Bio-film Engineering at Montana State University have proven that antibiotics will not fully penetrate the protective bio-film produced by Lyme and other tick-borne organisms like Bartonella. These studies suggest that giving antibiotic therapy before the four layers of biofilm are adequately penetrated will fail to produce a bactericidal kill, and will ultimately produce more antibiotic resistant pathogens through induction of bacterial mutations, the creation of even more resistant phenotypes. Their chief scientist calls patients victims if their physician uses antibiotics as a first line of treatment.

Antibiotic-Induced Gut Toxicity Suppresses Immune Function
Lyme patients often become more debilitated after months of aggressive antibiotic therapy. Furthermore, prolonged antibiotic therapy suppresses the immune system in Lyme patients. Lyme treatment consisting solely of antibiotic therapy can ultimately destroy the intestinal lining where 70 percent of our immune system is located.

Intestinal dysbiosis is the term used to describe an imbalance of intestinal organisms. Prolonged antibiotic therapy ultimately kills our good intestinal bacteria. Lactobacillus is a healthy intestinal bacterium that produces lactic acid. Lactobacillis thereby ensures that the ph of our intestine remains more acidic disallowing overgrowth of foreign invaders.

After prolonged antibiotic therapy, the intestinal ph becomes more alkaline allowing excessive overgrowth of pathogenic yeast and the following toxic bacteria: Klebsiella, Proteus, and Enterobacteriaceae. When Candida mycotoxins and bacterial endotoxins destroy the intestinal lining they also destroy our antibody factory, the Peyer’s patch which is located in our intestinal lining.

Destruction of the intestinal lining also causes severe malnutrition as seen in Teal Green’s amino acid testing. Several of the essential amino acids are utilized to make natural killer cells, thus production of killer lymphocytes suffers from a malnourished state.

With enough antibiotic-induced destruction of the intestinal lining, Lyme patients develop severe Leaky Gut Syndrome. Once patients develop significant Leaky Gut Syndrome, their Immune System will waste resources attacking undigested food particles that “leak” across the damaged intestinal lining into the blood stream. Normally, these food particles are too large to cross over from the gut into the bloodstream.

Antibiotic-Induced Gut Toxicity Causes Increased Brain Toxicity Which
Suppresses Immune Function

After Lyme patients develop antibiotic-induced gut toxicity, yeast mycotoxins and bacterial endotoxins migrate from the gut to the brain. These toxins are fatty in structure and deposit in the fattiest organ, our brain which is 60 percent fat. These neurotoxins inflame the brain’s white matter, the insulation on brain neurons called myelin, adding to the cumulative level of neurotoxicity which is already significant in Lyme patients from brain accumulation of the Lyme toxin.

Antibiotic-induced neurotoxicity causes further suppression of the immune system by “shutting down” the electrical current in the brain. This is problematic because the brain’s electrical activity is responsible for stimulating cytokine activity. Cytokines are the chemical messengers that activate our natural killer cells.

When neurotoxins inflame the myelin sheath of brain neurons, they change the electromagnetic field surrounding the neuron slowing the speed of the electrical impulse. By this mechanism, neurotoxins essentially suppress the brain’s electrical activity.

In a healthy brain, electrical current jumps over the myelin on brain neurons in rapid fashion. However, when the myelin sheath becomes infiltrated with fatty neurotoxins from the gut, in addition to toxins from the Lyme spirochete, it fails to effectively modulate immune function.

 

beaverfury

beaverfury
Messages
503
Location
West Australia
I think that this is where the Real Housewife of BH, Yolanda Foster, went for at least part of her Lyme treatment.

She is wealthy enough to go anywhere she wanted so...that says something. Whether or not it says that their methods work well for everyone, I'm not sure.

It's an investment for sure though. I think you have to live in the area for a few months and get regular IVs.

They sound a bit dodge, using terms like 'mold gene', 'A-5 nucleus' (?), very vague neurological talk and even vaguer explanation of treatment. Yet, they seem to have many satisfied customers. I can't figure it out.
 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
They sound a bit dodge, using terms like 'mold gene', 'A-5 nucleus' (?), very vague neurological talk and even vaguer explanation of treatment. Yet, they seem to have many satisfied customers. I can't figure it out.
Well, mold gene probably just refers to the HLA genes which are pretty widely accepted at this point. Most LLMDs test for the HLA panel i.e. Shoemaker, Horowitz etc.

A5 nucleus just seems to refer to a group of cells in the brain that primarily produce NE.

I wouldn't expect a marketing video on their website to get into detailed treatment protocols. I would expect them to "dumb it down" for a general audience.

It honestly doesn't sound like he is doing a lot that most good LLMDs aren't already doing - just possibly slightly more aggressively. He certainly isn't following the IDSA recommendations though so in some people's minds, that will make anything he does do dodgy.

I personally like his focus on biofilms because I think that is an important component that is often overlooked in many treatment protocols.

Now that I think about it, I emailed them about a statement they made on their website a while ago...I wanted a reference for it. No one ever got back to me (which isn't such a good sign to me). I will have to go back and see if I can find what that was...
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
They sound a bit dodge, using terms like 'mold gene', 'A-5 nucleus' (?), very vague neurological talk and even vaguer explanation of treatment. Yet, they seem to have many satisfied customers. I can't figure it out.
They obviously cherry-pick positive results to show on their page. And even in their before-and-after photos, most of the "afters" still have the exhausted look around their eyes.

I guess it would depend on the treatment someone wants. They obviously don't like antibiotics there, but talk about toxicity, anxiety, depression, and "treating the brain". Sounds like a pile of BS to me, but I'm sure some people will want that approach.
 

beaverfury

beaverfury
Messages
503
Location
West Australia
Well, mold gene probably just refers to the HLA genes which are pretty widely accepted at this point. Most LLMDs test for the HLA panel i.e. Shoemaker, Horowitz etc.

A5 nucleus just seems to refer to a group of cells in the brain that primarily produce NE.
.

Do you know if this HLA gene is searchable on 23andMe, Ema ? They quote it as HLA-DRBQ.


Ah, i found it A-5 nucleus. Neurons located in the nucleus raphe magnus. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3754780
 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
They obviously cherry-pick positive results to show on their page. And even in their before-and-after photos, most of the "afters" still have the exhausted look around their eyes.

I guess it would depend on the treatment someone wants. They obviously don't like antibiotics there, but talk about toxicity, anxiety, depression, and "treating the brain". Sounds like a pile of BS to me, but I'm sure some people will want that approach.
Honestly, I think some people will get better *anywhere* and I don't blame them for cherry picking their patients for their marketing website. I hardly advertise my mistakes on my website and that doesn't mean I'm crap at my job or some sort of flake (or was anyway...)

Personally, I have a lot of interest in neurotransmitters and treating my brain, especially my mitochondria in my hypothalamus and reducing inflammation. I believe this would also lead to improvement in hormone levels which would improve anxiety and depression as well as any other number of symptoms. Increasing NE could help with OI, for example. So I don't have any issue with that either or consider it BS. There's a lot in the scientific literature on that very topic.

I'd say it's probably about 50/50 whether or not one would improve with their approach and I think you could do a lot of it for a lot less money if you were willing to put in the time to research on your own. But if you have the money and don't mind taking a shot, I don't think they are necessarily any better or worse than any other approach we have at this point.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
@Ema - My dislike with his "brain" claims comes more from the sloppy way the terminology is used. Either he assumes some of his potential clients are morons who can't figure out what "neurological" means, or he's deliberately being vague. I don't care for either explanation :p
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,946
Location
Albuquerque
As I remember, they actually do use antibiotics as a main treatment--at a much higher price than elsewhere. Yolanda Foster did go there but she went a number of places and still needed treatment after being at this clinic. I did some deeper searching on this clinic a while back and there are a lot of negative reports too.

Sushi
 

peggy-sue

Senior Member
Messages
2,623
Location
Scotland
@Ema , you said; "Increasing NE could help with OI, for example."

Is that the case?
I ask, because my OI got an awful lot worse on amitriptyline.
(which increases adrenalin rather than noradrenalin) according to my GP.

So I asked about another kind, imipramine, and he told me that that increases the noradrenalin, and the side effects I was getting (drastically more OI) were noradrenlin effects. so it would be even worse than the amitriptyline.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,946
Location
Albuquerque
@Ema , you said; "Increasing NE could help with OI, for example."

Is that the case?
I ask, because my OI got an awful lot worse on amitriptyline.
(which increases adrenalin rather than noradrenalin) according to my GP.

So I asked about another kind, imipramine, and he told me that that increases the noradrenalin, and the side effects I was getting (drastically more OI) were noradrenlin effects. so it would be even worse than the amitriptyline.

Strattera worked for me--it took away OI entirely. But it only works for a percentage of patients. It is a norep reuptake inhibitor. I had to start with 1/3 of the lowest dose capsule, every other day or third day, and slowly increase it in order to tolerate it initially.

Sushi
 

peggy-sue

Senior Member
Messages
2,623
Location
Scotland
I wasn't measured for anything at the time. Just given the prescribed "low dose amitriptyline to help sleep".
I don't trust what my gp says anyway, (that's why I was checking)
He told me that a haemoglobin and a haematocrit were "the same things anyway".

Given I've performed both tests when working in labs, my BS radar was pinging madly.
I have a very highly sensitive BS radar.
(And absolutely no gaydar at all.:p)
 

Soundthealarm21

Senior Member
Messages
420
Location
Dallas, TX
I'm pretty sure 6 weeks out there is somewhere in the range of $18,000. One of my doctors said that he is very smart, but she did not recommend going and I do not remember the reason.
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,458
Location
Ashland, Oregon
I've been researching Sponaugle and his clinic, and for the most part like what he has to say. In this video, at the 18:00 minute mark, he gives a pretty good description of what he feels is going on in the brain with Lyme patients. Seemed to match up well with my own cognitive deficiences resulting from my Lyme infection.

 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
Do you know if this HLA gene is searchable on 23andMe, Ema ? They quote it as HLA-DRBQ.


Ah, i found it A-5 nucleus. Neurons located in the nucleus raphe magnus. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3754780


It is sort of but not as precisely as the Shoemaker test. If you input 23andme results into MTHFR Support you will get a read out for HLA rs7775228 and HLA rs2155219. My Shoemaker test came out the same- heterozygous for the DRBQ gene
 
Messages
4
They sound a bit dodge, using terms like 'mold gene', 'A-5 nucleus' (?), very vague neurological talk and even vaguer explanation of treatment. Yet, they seem to have many satisfied customers. I can't figure it out.
This place is a fraud. If any patient is cured, it would be accidental. I was there and sicker than when I went. The testimonials are coerced and reviews are written by the clinic's friends & relatives, not by patients. Don't go.
 
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